[03:23] <lordsservant> Hows about instead of "The Next Days" we call it the "End of Days"
[03:23] <lordsservant> I think that more accurately describes it :stuck_out_tongue:
[03:23] <lordsservant> and I agree, watched that vid last night, was awesome.
[03:23] <lordsservant> We need to keep combat refitting on triage, it's 11/10 needed for wspace. The only problem where combat refitting is an issue and not an amazing part of high level gameplay is on slowcat blobs
[03:24] <lordsservant> which tbh we're halfway fixing with the RR removal, so I really don't see the issue anymore...
[08:24] <scott_ormands> Agreed on the point about remote rep removal
[08:28] <sorticus> the issue is if you keep refit on triage you run the risk of slowcats 2.0
[08:30] <sorticus> suddenly refit to full tank becomes the new thing and you just end up with dropping lots of carriers to save something and having no way to stop it
[08:30] <sorticus> doesnt matter if they have no offencive capabilities
[08:30] <sorticus> Things need to die
[08:33] <darren_fox> There is a limit to what refitting can accomplish. If you apply only DPS or only neuts, refitting improves the carriers survivability by a lot, but apply dps and neuts at the same time, and ideally damage to subcaps that the triage also needs to rep and it's rip triage
[08:35] <darren_fox> So imo you won't risk slowcats 2.0.
[08:39] <darren_fox> 10 triage carriers are individually just as strong or weak as 2 triage carriers. If you can kill one during it's 5 min cycle, it will die regardsless of how many others are on grid.
[10:51] <5pitf1re> to be honest I'd much rather risk slowcats 2.0 than preemptively nerfing caps into the ground and taking away every fun and engaging aspect
[10:51] <5pitf1re> if it really becomes an issue, CCP can simply fix it then
[10:51] <5pitf1re> I’d wait and see how the cap changes themselves change the meta first before taking away refitting
[11:33] <sebastien_st.frusquin> @sorticus: if you don't have the refit possibility, things WILL be fitted full tank at all time anyway because of inherent risk-adverseness
[11:34] <sebastien_st.frusquin> if anything, you'll get even less kill opportunities
[11:34] <sebastien_st.frusquin> combat refitting prolonging fights is a stable of low- to medium-scale fights as it is
[11:36] <sebastien_st.frusquin> competent players know they can improve their odds due to being better at managing their fittings, and are willing to take one fight due to that
[11:36] <sebastien_st.frusquin> remove refitting, these fights won't happen
[18:52] <lamhoofd_hashur> slowcats are already completely being countered by making remote reps pretty much useless out of triage
[18:53] <5pitf1re> I think a complete removal of remote reps was mentioned for carriers and super carriers.
[18:54] <lamhoofd_hashur> yeah, the details are just not known yet how they will do that
[18:54] <lamhoofd_hashur> but it is def possible to break up slowcats that way
[18:55] <5pitf1re> indeed
[18:56] <5pitf1re> From my point of view this should be the first step before looking any further.
[19:03] <sebastien_st.frusquin> this game need more ways for the good players, those that have situation awareness and knowledge of their ships and fittings, to outsmart and outperform the average F1 pusher, not less
[19:03] <sebastien_st.frusquin> removing sich possibilities will certainly not create more fights
[19:05] <titus.tallang> +1
[19:23] <5pitf1re> people don't seem to like my answer that separation through bumps is a valid counter play to refitting
[21:16] <max_kolonko> Because its not.
[21:16] <max_kolonko> :)
[21:32] <5pitf1re> yes it is :simple_smile:
[21:33] <5pitf1re> try to refit while being bumped off your refitting buddy
[21:33] <5pitf1re> let me know how it worked out for you :wink:
[21:39] <lordsservant> it absolutely is
[21:39] <lordsservant> at least in wspace
[21:39] <lordsservant> sure if you can drop 200 archons in a circle, its harder to bump away for refitting
[21:39] <lordsservant> but at that scale with the RR change, your 1k pubbies in t1 fit BS will massacre any fax that go into triage
[21:40] <titus.tallang> and outside of triage RR is getting nerfed to shit anyway
[21:40] <lordsservant> ofc you can go with 200 archons for dps and 1k pubbies in scythes or w/e to rep them
[21:40] <lordsservant> but thats just normal pubbieblob stuff
[21:40] <lordsservant> not capital balancing issues
[21:40] <5pitf1re> on a small scale, even up to 10-ish carriers you can lose tons of carriers by separation
[21:40] <lordsservant> yep
[21:41] <5pitf1re> I remember how BL killed a bunch of GSF carriers this way with Gilas.
[21:41] <5pitf1re> Gila bumps one by one.
[22:01] <sebastien_st.frusquin> I remember more BL buming a nyx with ishtars from the middle of a NCdot wrecking ball
[22:03] <sebastien_st.frusquin> it was one of these rare textbook case of subcap superiority slowly grinding away at an unsupported cap ball, with ishtars killing a million fighters and fighter-bombers until BL supers came on the other side of their tower to kill a bunch of carriers and one nyx
[22:04] <sebastien_st.frusquin> it also showcased how ridiculously hard it was for sai subcap that had total superiority to grind said cap ball
[22:04] <titus.tallang> which is due to spider tanking though
[22:04] <titus.tallang> not due to refitting
[22:04] <sebastien_st.frusquin> exactly
[22:05] <titus.tallang> well not refitting alone
[22:05] <sebastien_st.frusquin> the slowcat main issue was always to me their duality as damage dealers and logistics with extremely high EHP
[22:06] <sebastien_st.frusquin> you could in practice be always max tank fit, if only because when multiboxing you don't want to be taken by surprise on a lightly-tanked account you were not watching at the time it got primaried
[22:09] <sebastien_st.frusquin> refitting did came into play and affected the battle with the choice of utility high slots: drone links were default sure, but sometimes it was better to have a smartbomb, or a neutralizer - and in that case, who to neutralize to maximize the efficiency, which in turn may involve refitting a ship scanner, etc...
[22:10] <sebastien_st.frusquin> but that, to me, is gameplay worth having