[00:37] <max_kolonko> Yep, unfortunately
[09:52] <nyrocron> it's fair enough i think. the skillbook cost is annoying but i can live with that
[09:52] <nyrocron> it would make more sense if fax skills were 12x though
[10:14] <max_kolonko> I'm pissed but i see its mute point to argue about it since we are hitting brick wall. I have few months of retraining ahead of me. Worst parr is that i have to sacrifice triage to get into supers (atleast on decent level)
[10:22] <max_kolonko> So i will be training fauxes of 4 races on both chars :(
[10:27] <max_kolonko> Maybe i will get one fax from the start but ill wait untill we get concrete stats.
[10:28] <max_kolonko> I overinvested lately so spending 8*500m on books is a no-no :)
[10:52] <muhadin> Just bought 15 fax skillbooks for 6 different toons
[11:56] <jezza_mcwaffle> I'm waiting for the info to be released on their bonuses given we roughly know the stats before injecting any books.
[12:02] <sebastien_st.frusquin> I'm waiting for anything to convince me caps will still have a place in the game
[12:07] <5pitf1re> I need to make some ISK first for that shit. Been pewpewing the last couple of months without making money. :stuck_out_tongue:
[12:25] <rocket_x> @jezza_mcwaffle: same here
[12:25] <rocket_x> I've decided i'm going to basically wait until the devblog to see if i need to 'flip my shit' publically
[12:30] <jezza_mcwaffle> I'm not particulary fussed over the current changes, given you can have both to 4 with SP to spare which I think is an OK compromise. I do think that the super carrier and carrier skill should be split though and regular caps have their multipler reduced to balance it out
[12:30] <rocket_x> I have 4 carrier skills to 5
[12:30] <rocket_x> as you can imagine
[12:31] <rocket_x> i'm not happy about the prospect of having to train for 200+ days in order for my character to be able to perform the same roles it can currently when the patch hits
[12:31] <rocket_x> with all the new skills introduced, to fly the ships effectively, including all the new fighter skills and such
[12:31] <rocket_x> i'm looking at nearly a year
[12:32] <rocket_x> which is what this patch will cost me if it goes as currently planned
[12:32] <rocket_x> and there are a lot of people in my position, granted to a lesser extent for the most part
[12:35] <5pitf1re> but rocket_x you can use skill injectors now :sun_with_face:
[12:35] <rocket_x> oh yeah
[12:35] <rocket_x> i forgot
[12:35] <rocket_x> i could spend 16b x4
[12:35] <rocket_x> and fix my problem immediately
[12:35] <5pitf1re> #nopoors
[12:35] <rocket_x> or
[12:35] <rocket_x> i could buy a 50mil sp char
[12:36] <rocket_x> and pay some ruski nerd to fly it around after me all day
[12:36] <5pitf1re> sounds reasonable
[12:36] <5pitf1re> a personal assistant, like jeff has
[12:36] <5pitf1re> just pick a waffle
[12:44] <jezza_mcwaffle> You'll still be able to do the same roles though, just not as well as currently, I think we need to make that distinction
[13:08] <muhadin> rocket_x: You just have to choose whether you want amarr carrier 5 or amarr fax 5
[13:08] <muhadin> Or you can start training amarr fax now and dump the amarr carrier 5 into caldari fax 5 later
[13:08] <rocket_x> i know how it works muha
[13:10] <muhadin> I don't really understand your issue then. From the beginning nobody should of been expecting to instantly beable to have everything.
[13:13] <rocket_x> i made an educated guess that regardless of what the final implementation was i'd benefit from having carrier 5's
[13:13] <rocket_x> which now enables me to pick 2 races of fax, and 2 races of carrier
[13:13] <rocket_x> and fly them both to the maximum level
[13:13] <rocket_x> the problem is more related to for example super pilots
[13:14] <rocket_x> whom need their carrier skill for the super, but also trained remote rep skills, triage skills etc
[13:14] <rocket_x> the majority of those will now be useless
[13:15] <rocket_x> because they're flying supers, they don't really have that choice
[13:16] <muhadin> Do you mean in regards to the wasted sp in triage/ remote reps?
[13:16] <muhadin> for super pilots
[13:16] <rocket_x> in part, yes
[13:17] <muhadin> Otherwise as far as i was aware the carrier skill gets liquified to unallocated SP IF you had the fax skill trained of that race and you can choose what to do with the SP, put it into the fax skill or back into carrier.
[13:17] <muhadin> So there is a choice
[13:18] <rocket_x> which requires injection of a skill you might not actually want to train, assuming you just want to pull the SP out of it
[13:18] <rocket_x> currently, my main can fly 4 races of combat carrier, and 4 races of triage carrier perfectly
[13:19] <rocket_x> to achieve that same functionality post patch
[13:19] <rocket_x> it'll require 240 days of training
[13:20] <muhadin> I mean sure, if you say it like that but that just seems like semantics, nobody in eve is going to benefit absolutely from being able to fly all 4 perfectly on patch day, or 6 months after patch.
[13:21] <muhadin> Besides just saying you can fly them all perfectly
[13:21] <rocket_x> do you have logistics 5 on your main?
[13:21] <muhadin> Yes..
[13:22] <rocket_x> How often do you fly a logi on your main
[13:22] <muhadin> Never
[13:22] <rocket_x> so, having logistics 5 is also useless
[13:22] <rocket_x> by your analogy
[13:22] <rocket_x> because you don't use something, doesn't mean that having the ability to do so should you need to has no benefit
[13:23] <rocket_x> that's what this is about
[13:23] <rocket_x> training investment
[13:23] <rocket_x> i didn't train minmatar carrier 5 because i fly nidhoggurs
[13:23] <rocket_x> i trained it incase i ever needed to fly one where someone else couldn't
[13:24] <muhadin> Its a completely new ship though, thats all you have to think of it as.
[13:24] <rocket_x> Its not a new ship
[13:24] <muhadin> Don't think of it as a replacement.
[13:24] <rocket_x> its a carrier with a triage module
[13:24] <muhadin> New Bonus's, New Hull, New Name, New Skills
[13:25] <rocket_x> the function is the same, regardless of how you dress it
[13:25] <rocket_x> the role it plays on the battlefield, will be the same
[13:25] <rocket_x> In the absence of carrier/super RR
[13:25] <rocket_x> you're left with only triage as capital level logistics
[13:25] <rocket_x> that's what a FAX is for
[13:25] <muhadin> But why should they give us tons of free skillpoints when they have a perfectly simple solution?
[13:26] <muhadin> They are afterall allowing us to choose which we would like to focus.
[13:27] <rocket_x> many pilots have both carrier 5, fighter skills and triage skills
[13:27] <muhadin> There probably wasn't any way around the battlecruiser or destroyer seperation. But i do not agree with giving tons of people tons of skillpoints.
[13:27] <rocket_x> they chose to do one, they also chose to do the other
[13:27] <muhadin> Atleast in the future, should someone choose to want to fly a minmatar fax over an amarr fax they should have to train it to 5 to fly it perfectly.
[13:27] <rocket_x> they trained for both
[13:27] <muhadin> Otherwise 4 would suffice.
[13:28] <rocket_x> the point is
[13:28] <muhadin> rocket_x: You can have all the fax at 5, you just have to have all the carriers at 4
[13:28] <muhadin> Which would you say then if FAX are not new, then the carriers are new?
[13:28] <rocket_x> any given character will be less capable of performing either of the two functions than they are currently
[13:29] <rocket_x> Neither are new ships, one ship's role is being split into two
[13:29] <muhadin> But that is a much more niche case
[13:29] <rocket_x> FAX takes the existing triage role
[13:29] <muhadin> A majority of people dont even have more than 2 carriers trained period.
[13:29] <muhadin> In regards to the long training period
[13:29] <muhadin> So framing it like that
[13:29] <rocket_x> and combat carriers remain very similar to current, with the removal of normal drones being substituted with fighter squadrons
[13:29] <muhadin> Is just out of context
[13:30] <rocket_x> Not really, the only difference is the scale
[13:30] <rocket_x> The problem still exists, regardless of whether its 1 carrier book, or 4
[13:30] <muhadin> Not really
[13:31] <muhadin> If you have 1, you train for 30 days, if you have 4 you train for 120 days.
[13:31] <muhadin> Thus your '200days' to be the same now as after
[13:31] <muhadin> Is out of context of the primary balance goal.
[13:31] <muhadin> If you started training right now you could get 2 or 3 fax to 5
[13:32] <rocket_x> People will be just as mad about their 54 day train as i am about the 200
[13:32] <muhadin> They have to choose which they want to fly the best. I see no reason at all to give tons of free sp
[13:33] <muhadin> When lv4 to lv5 is so minor
[13:33] <rocket_x> what negative effect do you see giving out 'tons of SP' to have?
[13:34] <rocket_x> i'm waiting for you to say people extracting the duped skills and selling them as skill injectors
[13:35] <rocket_x> The majority of people whom have those skills (i.e. carrier 5 + triage skills) wouldn't extract them, they wanted to be able to fly triage carriers and combat carriers before the patch, why would that change afterwards
[13:35] <rocket_x> the only problem would be announcing it super early, resulting in people 'gaming' the patch
[13:35] <muhadin> Theres not neccesarily any negative effective. But people don't feel entitled when its a brand new ship and they have to train the skill up do they?
[13:36] <rocket_x> your assumption that FAX is a brand new ship in terms of its place in the game is flawed
[13:36] <muhadin> But imo it should be viewed as a new ship. And i agree with ccp that there should be choices, not ccp handing us everything on a silver platter.
[13:36] <rocket_x> A 'New ship' is based on its function
[13:37] <rocket_x> t3d's
[13:37] <rocket_x> t3 cruisers
[13:37] <rocket_x> ewar frigs
[13:37] <rocket_x> tier 3 bc's
[13:37] <rocket_x> HICs
[13:37] <rocket_x> Recons
[13:37] <darren_fox> The revamped carrier will be a "new" ship
[13:37] <muhadin> They are both new ships
[13:37] <rocket_x> I can see that argument, but it falls flat on its face when you're substituting the functionality of a current ship
[13:38] <rocket_x> with one new ship, and modifying the current one
[13:39] <rocket_x> It'd be like making a new dread-like ship, calling them 'blapnaughts' and making them use different skills, with the HAW requiring different skills, whilst massively nerfing current capital weaponry to prevent it hitting anything not capital completely
[13:39] <muhadin> Anyways, theres not that many people in eve with carrier 5, and they are likely rich enough not to care or have anything else left to train.
[13:39] <muhadin> So what does it matter?
[13:39] <rocket_x> If there aren't that many people with carrier 5
[13:39] <muhadin> I'm totally cool with 30-60day train on 1-2 fax skills
[13:39] <rocket_x> then you're not giving out loads of SP
[13:39] <rocket_x> those 30-60 days isn't long to you
[13:39] <rocket_x> you've been around a while
[13:40] <rocket_x> newer capital pilots won't see it that way
[13:40] <muhadin> I do not agree with NET GAIN SP on characters. And you are right the extra abuse of extractors with the billions of skillpoints they add if they gave you all carrier 5
[13:40] <muhadin> They also don't want people rushing to train carrier 5 before the patch so they also get fax 5 for free
[13:41] <muhadin> If they gave you fax 5 if you have carrier 5, everyone would be forced to use injectors to get carrier 5 or train it up
[13:41] <muhadin> before the patch
[13:41] <muhadin> so you get free SP
[13:41] <muhadin> Does that seemed balanced?
[13:41] <darren_fox> When the destroyer/BC split happened, it was announced early enough to allow for everyone (including a day 1 char) to train for it. That made it _ok_
[13:42] <capqu> i mean we've been over this a million times now
[13:42] <muhadin> rocket_x: If they announced right now that all carrier 5s were fax 5s i would go inject all 4 racial 5 on all my carrier pilots
[13:42] <muhadin> instantly
[13:42] <rocket_x> oh i know
[13:43] <rocket_x> which is why introducing skill injectors first was stupid
[13:43] <muhadin> Eitherway, people would feel forced to rush train carriers to 5 before the patch
[13:43] <muhadin> which is also a shitty situation
[13:44] <rocket_x> the smart thing to do
[13:44] <rocket_x> would've been to do it months ago
[13:44] <muhadin> So your just mad you trained all 4 carriers to 5 and you dont get all fax 5?
[13:44] <muhadin> xD
[13:44] <rocket_x> i have 220mil sp
[13:44] <rocket_x> so no, i literally have nothing else to train
[13:45] <capqu> i think most people are upset about the wasted sp
[13:45] <rocket_x> ^^
[13:45] <capqu> like shield emissions v & remote armor rep v
[13:45] <capqu> on characters they wont be paying 550m to train into fax
[13:46] <capqu> and interfacing v / fighters / droneskills on chars they are only going to fax on
[13:46] <rocket_x> especially because chars that have those, will normally be well above 80mil SP, and will get shit returns trying to extract/inject them back elsewhere
[13:46] <capqu> the extract inject thing is a seperate issue
[13:46] <darren_fox> I see that point. If you don't go for fax, but have cap remote skills trained, it's useless sp
[13:46] <capqu> just unfortunate timing makes it look bad
[13:46] <rocket_x> You can't give people the choice between the two new classes without giving them some way to un-fuck the rest of their skills
[13:47] <rocket_x> Skill injectors were meant to help newer players be more competitive
[13:47] <muhadin> But 80mil sp super pilots have tons of wasted sp regardless
[13:47] <muhadin> Whats a little more? lmao
[13:47] <rocket_x> i think its incredibly sad that their existance played a role in the formation of the current proposed changes to the fax/carrier skills
[13:48] <muhadin> Was it actually, or was it just by chance the same patch?
[13:48] <capqu> did they tho rocket_x
[13:48] <capqu> im not sure they did, and if they did its an awful decision
[13:48] <capqu> i hope its just unfortunate timing
[13:48] <capqu> and ccp isnt actually turning into the money grabbler reddit seems to think they are
[13:49] <muhadin> Yeah its just a coincidence.
[13:50] <rocket_x> You guys are so cute sometimes :simple_smile:
[13:51] <capqu> well lets go forwards under the assumption that it was a conincidence anyway
[13:51] <capqu> because we cant really change anything about it at this stage
[13:55] <rocket_x> like i said earlier
[13:55] <rocket_x> before i actually try and argue the point
[13:55] <rocket_x> i'm waiting until the dev blog
[13:55] <rocket_x> also, releasing skillbooks for ships that we don't even have stats/bonuses for is kindof a dumbo move too
[13:56] <muhadin> Can we post the upcomming devblogs to CFG reddit?
[13:56] <muhadin> So we can shitpost on there.
[13:56] <muhadin> I don't participate in this channel much as you can imagine why.
[13:56] <rocket_x> yeah
[13:56] <rocket_x> all this SP stuff was discussed before btw
[13:56] <rocket_x> tl;dr
[13:56] <rocket_x> skill bloating wasn't considered a problem
[13:56] <rocket_x> though i argued that it was
[13:57] <rocket_x> i came around after the others convinced me
[13:57] <rocket_x> now it would be a problem because of extractors
[13:57] <rocket_x> aside from the actual 'omg i can sell my SP now' thing
[13:57] <rocket_x> SP bloating would be even less of a problem
[13:58] <rocket_x> because extra skillpoints on a char past a certain level would always be considered waste
[13:58] <rocket_x> i.e. titans with over 60mil sp
[13:58] <rocket_x> supers with over 50
[13:58] <rocket_x> etc etc
[13:58] <rocket_x> the days of 200mil sp chars being desirable are over now
[13:59] <rocket_x> Personally, i'll never extract SP from my main
[14:01] <muhadin> How would you do the remote rep reallocation rocket_x ?
[14:01] <muhadin> Just rip everything out, the capital skill the subcap pre-req
[14:01] <rocket_x> sub-cap pre-reqs can stay
[14:01] <rocket_x> because they still have uses on other ships
[14:02] <muhadin> for most people they only have it at 4 though, most super pilots probably won't even notice the swap
[14:02] <muhadin> just that they have ot train the new fighters up
[14:02] <rocket_x> the capital RR stuff being refunded would be a good step
[14:02] <rocket_x> because you could dump the SP back into the new fighter stuff
[14:02] <rocket_x> If they're going to go the refunding route
[14:02] <rocket_x> they need to expand it
[14:03] <rocket_x> to allow people to make a real choice, one way or the other
[14:03] <rocket_x> rather than limiting it to the ship skill itself
[14:05] <muhadin> I don't think i have seen them do a opt in refund before.
[14:05] <muhadin> And doing blanket reallocation might be weird
[14:05] <muhadin> So, if no fax trained all capital remote skills refunded?
[14:06] <muhadin> I don't think they really have the tech for individual signup refund.
[14:06] <muhadin> Anything they do sp wise has to be blanket
[14:08] <muhadin> Hey uh can any of us make a thread?
[14:08] <muhadin> Cause this would be a good subject for a thread.
[14:32] <scott_ormands> Just got up so im going to chime in here. The problem with saying oh you can just use that refunded sp to get both to 4 so you can do both like a lot of people say is a non solution. I trained it to 5 so I could be perfect, not just OK or good
[14:33] <scott_ormands> And yes its a new ship hull but it's not a new function. They are transplanting a function from one ship to another
[15:42] <nync> anyone experiencing camera freeze after titan bridge?
[16:02] <5pitf1re> @ccp_larrikin: is there a specific reason why capital RR and capital cap transfer have not been considered for refund?
[16:03] <5pitf1re> What if I don’t plan to fly a FAX with my character?
[17:40] <scott_ormands> http://puu.sh/n2WHT/2a2decc190.jpg
[18:04] <max_kolonko> Im with scott here. But biw that @ccp_larrikin: posted on forum lets wait and see what new proposals is.
[18:32] <sebastien_st.frusquin> well that is a good piece of news
[19:13] <rocket_x> i'm celebrating
[19:13] <rocket_x> by killing deklein ch00b carriers
[19:13] <rocket_x> 2x in 40mins
[19:13] <rocket_x> in the same system
[20:00] <5pitf1re> links
[20:00] <5pitf1re> demand proof