[03:13] <titus.tallang> > Now, if only there were mining and salvage fighters...
[03:13] <titus.tallang> from one of our dudes
[03:13] <titus.tallang> so yeah ccp_larrikin is this gonna be a thing
[03:13] <titus.tallang> gotta cover the mining carrier niche userbase
[03:15] <titus.tallang> heck, turn the rorqual into a "mining support carrier" while we're at it
[03:15] <titus.tallang> give it a bonus to mining squadrons, mining links and whatever we think of
[03:16] <titus.tallang> let it launch (weaker versions of) carrier fighters for self-defense
[03:16] <titus.tallang> in addition to the regular stuff it does
[03:16] <titus.tallang> idk just a super random thought i have at 5am in the morning
[03:20] <titus.tallang> dunno it really fits for me but that's maybe just my sleep-addled brain
[03:21] <titus.tallang> speaking of sleep, that's what i'll go get now
[03:21] <titus.tallang> g'nite
[06:31] <scott_ormands> Am I the only one thinking that with all the new capital modules we are putting in the game, especially the tank ones, we are going to end up with supers/capitals as or more tanky than the ones we have at current ?
[06:45] <ccp_larrikin> I'd love to hear your suggestions :simple_smile:
[06:52] <darren_fox> Is it an option to either allow different squadrons on the carriers (2 support etc) or give bonuses to the different types?
[06:53] <darren_fox> example: Nidhoggur can field 2 support squadrons
[06:55] <darren_fox> Thanatos can field 1 heavy, but with a significant drawback?
[06:55] <ccp_larrikin> Its possible, and originaly we planed that. but it would make the Thanatos clearly a lot more powerful
[06:56] <darren_fox> Well, it could be balanced with drawbacks to the squadron itself? Like fewer heavies
[06:57] <ccp_larrikin> we want to keep the squadron sizes the same between ships, or we run into some funky UI issues
[06:57] <darren_fox> alright
[06:58] <darren_fox> -X0% to heavy fighter hp & damage?
[06:58] <darren_fox> Looks terrible on paper, but easier to balance
[06:58] <darren_fox> As a static role bonus
[07:55] <xttz> what about something as simple as:
[07:55] <xttz> Archon
[07:55] <xttz> 3% Fighter Damage and Hitpoints
[07:55] <xttz> Chimera
[07:55] <xttz> 3% Fighter Hitpoints and Speed
[07:55] <xttz> Nidhoggur
[07:55] <xttz> 3% Fighter Damage and Speed
[07:55] <xttz> Thanatos
[07:55] <xttz> 5% Fighter Damage
[07:56] <xttz> (not exactly of course, just varying the fighter bonuses among carriers)
[08:00] <ccp_larrikin> Doesn't that just clearly make the Thanatos better?
[08:02] <xttz> its just the concept of varying the bonus among carriers
[08:03] <ccp_larrikin> Sure, we also looked at a +armor/shield HP bonus on the Archon/Chimera
[08:33] <5pitf1re> I'm thinking carriers should just get more HP like you just said, not necessarily as a bonus but simply integrated into the stats.
[08:34] <5pitf1re> And then do something along the lines of xttz's suggestion.
[08:34] <ccp_larrikin> We thought about Xttz's suggestion, but it really clearly just makes some carriers better than others
[08:34] <ccp_larrikin> Damage > all
[08:35] <ccp_larrikin> the only thing that comes even close to a damage bonus is a tanking bonus
[08:35] <5pitf1re> The thing with resistance bonuses is that if you apply them on two hulls you box yourself into a corner in terms of balancing options.
[08:35] <ccp_larrikin> sure, but you do the same if you give one hull a bigger damgae bonus
[08:35] <ccp_larrikin> it just becomes the best carrier
[08:35] <5pitf1re> indeed
[08:36] <5pitf1re> I'm not saying the Thanatos should get exactly that bonus
[08:36] <5pitf1re> but I like the theme of those bonuses
[08:36] <ccp_larrikin> Make a suggestion then :simple_smile:
[08:36] <ccp_larrikin> Personaly, I really like the tanking bonuses. Maybe 4
[08:36] <ccp_larrikin> 4% is too high
[08:37] <ccp_larrikin> but it gives a big differenciation between classes
[08:37] <5pitf1re> Have you thought about giving each carrier a mild version of their racial T2 resists?
[08:37] <ccp_larrikin> They arn't T2
[08:37] <5pitf1re> I'm aware.
[08:37] <ccp_larrikin> and that would remove any room for T2 carriers later
[08:38] <5pitf1re> I just think that for balancing options HP bonus (either as a bonus or simply based on stats) > resist bonus.
[08:39] <ccp_larrikin> Post a suggestion :simple_smile: I'm not against that at all
[08:39] <5pitf1re> kk
[08:39] <ccp_larrikin> My original take on these was a 5% HP bonus instead of resist bonus
[08:39] <xttz> if anything gets a HP bonus it should be thanatos / nid to make up for the missing tank slots compared to their armour/shield counterparts
[08:39] <ccp_larrikin> figuring 5% hp was about the same as 2.5% fighter damage + speed/hp
[08:40] <xttz> but they're also the best candidates for fighter damage/speed
[08:40] <5pitf1re> what xttz just said makes a lot of sense
[08:40] <ccp_larrikin> @xttz: do any other mini or gal hulls have a HP bonus? I guess the Prot
[08:40] <xttz> most tend to get local rep bonuses
[08:40] <ccp_larrikin> And I think thats a really crappy bonus to give a carrier
[08:41] <xttz> yeah hp is much better for them
[08:41] <ccp_larrikin> which would be breaking the theme of racial bonuses :disappointed:
[08:42] <xttz> sticking strictly to racial bonuses is very limiting; most of them don't apply to carriers
[08:42] <xttz> hybrids, local armour reps, etc
[08:42] <5pitf1re> on the other hand, a carrier is not exactly like most ships, so there's that
[08:43] <5pitf1re> one can argue that because it's so different it doesn't just follow the same theme
[08:43] <ccp_larrikin> @xttz: hah yeah its very limiting, but its also pretty important to the way the whole game feels :simple_smile:
[08:43] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: sure, by that argument why does a caldari carrier even exist though? None of their subcaps have drone bonuses
[08:45] <5pitf1re> Right, but like I said, it is a unique thing, especially with fighter squadrons which are no longer exactly just drones.
[08:45] <5pitf1re> None of the subcaps launch squadrons :simple_smile:
[08:46] <ccp_larrikin> @5pitf1re: sure, but there is some logical progression from Drones to Fighters. All the support drone skills apply to fighters
[08:46] <5pitf1re> mhmm, that's true
[08:46] <xttz> for caldari subcap bonuses you're looking at missiles, hybrids, ecm, shield resists
[08:46] <xttz> :confused:
[08:46] <ccp_larrikin> Yup
[08:47] <ccp_larrikin> Minmatar is kinda in the same place. They just get mostly damage bonsues
[08:47] <ccp_larrikin> and their hulls are a bit faster
[08:47] <ccp_larrikin> but that doesn't make much sence for carriers
[08:48] <scott_ormands> confirmed missile and turret hardpoints coming to carriers
[08:48] <scott_ormands> jk
[08:48] <5pitf1re> to reddit!
[08:49] <5pitf1re> chimera to become a big blackbird
[08:49] <scott_ormands> what if we gave the nid trails of ducktape floweing behind it
[08:49] <xttz> This could be an opportunity to expand the typical pool of racial bonuses; giving more options to future rebalancing (BS, T3's, etc)
[08:49] <ccp_larrikin> @scott_ormands: interestingly...the pre-WW2 carriers often had a significant surface armament. The Lexington had 4 twin 8-inch turrets, the equivilant of a cruiser
[08:50] <ccp_larrikin> *heavy cruiser
[08:50] <5pitf1re> setting precedents
[08:50] <5pitf1re> I like it
[08:50] <scott_ormands> xttz: what bonus's could we give to carriers thought hat would also work for subs
[08:51] <xttz> HP, cap capacity, drone damage/hp, lock range
[08:51] <scott_ormands> what is we allowed the racial carriers to fit their racial super cap super weapon, none of the others
[08:51] <ccp_larrikin> @xttz: HP is already an amarr thing
[08:52] <scott_ormands> ie archon gets the aoe neut
[08:52] <scott_ormands> etc...
[08:52] <scott_ormands> maybe reduce their effectriveness
[08:52] <scott_ormands> makes them a bit more of a stepping stone to super carriers
[08:54] <ccp_larrikin> I think we want to keep super carrier weapons as a super carrier only thing. Giving them to carriers (evne only one) would remove a lot of the progression from carriers to supercarriers
[08:55] <scott_ormands> yeah it does have a lot of those problems
[09:00] <scott_ormands> talking to my corp mates about carrier bonus's some of them really dont like the link bonus's, they feel its a waste of a bonus slot
[09:00] <ccp_larrikin> @scott_ormands: if we removed the link bonuses we wouldn't replace it with another bonus
[09:00] <ccp_larrikin> its just an extra
[09:00] <scott_ormands> yeah
[09:01] <scott_ormands> i think we had someone in here who ws very adament about their link carrier
[09:02] <scott_ormands> would a bonus to racial support fighter ehp matter be possible. make the thanny and nid bonus for fighters be for light fighters
[09:27] <5pitf1re> scott_ormands: you proposing more light fighter HP for archon/chimera and more support fighter HP for thanatos/nidhoggur?
[09:28] <scott_ormands> something like that yeah
[09:36] <5pitf1re> to get back to xttz's carrier bonuses suggestion, what if, instead of 5% damage on the thanatos, 3% damage and application (optimal/falloff)
[09:39] <xttz> FYI sisi is back up with the new supercarrier bonuses from yesterday
[09:39] <xttz> sorry rocket_x no more overpowered rev :disappointed:
[09:40] <5pitf1re> or maybe have the Chimera get speed and application since they are more the sniper type people traditionally
[09:42] <rocket_x> the revenant's afterburner bonus doesn't work
[09:42] <rocket_x> ...
[09:42] <rocket_x> lol
[09:43] <ccp_larrikin> @rocket_x: rly? bug report it please
[09:46] <rocket_x> 09:46:11 Combat 316949 to V3CTOR[SNIGG](Archon) - Tyrfing II - Hits
[09:47] <rocket_x> i think the revenant is still broken
[09:51] <rocket_x> 09:50:24 Combat 409568 to V3CTOR[SNIGG](Archon) - Tyrfing II - Hits
[09:51] <rocket_x> yeah
[09:51] <rocket_x> definitely still fucked
[09:52] <ccp_larrikin> na, its not. Its working as intended. But the base damage numbers on the heavy fighters havn't been changed on the sisi build yet.
[09:53] <ccp_larrikin> The old rev (or any SC) bonus was never applying to the new fighters
[09:53] <ccp_larrikin> its just the base numbers (from the CFG redit) of 100k damgae
[09:53] <ccp_larrikin> multiplied a whole bunch by skills
[09:53] <ccp_larrikin> The 100k damage is ment to be after skills. Currently on Sisi, the 100k damage is before skills
[09:54] <ccp_larrikin> Drone Interfacing, Fighters, Heavy Fighters, + others all give + damage
[09:54] <ccp_larrikin> ends up being a huge multiplier
[09:54] <ccp_larrikin> that doesn't stack
[09:54] <ccp_larrikin> add on damage mods and you get a crapton of damage
[09:55] <xttz> Will the missing capital mods (cap booster, battery, neuts, etc) be seeded soon on sisi?
[09:55] <ccp_larrikin> I thought neuts where already seeded?
[09:55] <ccp_larrikin> the others should be soon
[09:55] <rocket_x> 09:54:44 Combat 397296 to V3CTOR[SNIGG](Archon) - Tyrfing II - Hits
[09:57] <rocket_x> 73% resist on the target
[09:57] <rocket_x> my current alpha is 1,471,466.66 damage
[09:57] <rocket_x> per squad
[09:58] <ccp_larrikin> sec, I'm logging on to sisi
[10:02] <ccp_larrikin> na I'm looking at the attributes
[10:02] <rocket_x> ahh
[10:03] <ccp_larrikin> dev hax :simple_smile:
[10:03] <rocket_x> he killed my fighters
[10:03] <ccp_larrikin> its cool
[10:04] <ccp_larrikin> he's just sorting out then undock
[10:04] <rocket_x> i launched another squad
[10:04] <ccp_larrikin> sokay got the stats from the first
[10:05] <rocket_x> kk
[10:05] <ccp_larrikin> going to some investigaing btu I think maybe the multiplier form the DDAs is wrong
[10:05] <rocket_x> i have 5x fighter control thingies and 4x dda fitted
[10:07] <ccp_larrikin> @rocket_x: once the server comes back up can you log in again?
[10:07] <rocket_x> yeap
[10:08] <xttz> are FSU's stacking nerfed like DDAs?
[10:08] <rocket_x> yeah
[10:10] <ccp_larrikin> @rocket_x: ok, I think I got this figured out. I gotta run to a meeting
[10:10] <ccp_larrikin> I'll hit you up later today :simple_smile:
[10:10] <rocket_x> kk m8 ttyl
[13:01] <titus.tallang> hey @ccp_larrikin do you think you can devhax me to our home wormhole on sisi? want to fiddle with citadel locations a bit
[13:02] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: nope, we don't move people to wormholes.
[13:02] <titus.tallang> q.q
[13:02] <titus.tallang> can't get a hold of any of our dudes in that system
[13:03] <titus.tallang> they were all outside when mirror happened
[13:25] <darren_fox> Larrikin: With the carriers as they are now, they don't really have a use in wormhole space as the dps doesn't justify the mass. Is it possible to significantly lower their mass, like to 500M? Noobman asked about the same, but it got lost in another discussion
[13:26] <darren_fox> Maybe even 300M, so they can enter the lower class wormholes?
[13:26] <titus.tallang> ok so
[13:26] <titus.tallang> i just logged onto sisi
[13:26] <titus.tallang> got in a wyvern, launched fighters
[13:26] <titus.tallang> now how do i fighter
[13:26] <titus.tallang> i don't see the fancy fighter ui anywhere
[13:39] <titus.tallang> oh there's a super invisible toggle button on the module bar
[13:39] <titus.tallang> a+ visibility there :smile:
[13:43] <titus.tallang> the 3d space click targeting sucks
[13:43] <titus.tallang> you can't click onto a ship because the brackets are higher z layer
[13:44] <ccp_larrikin> @titus.tallang: thats getting looked at
[13:44] <titus.tallang> also, how does auto-repeat on mjd work?
[13:45] <titus.tallang> for heavies
[13:47] <titus.tallang> it seems pretty broken
[13:47] <titus.tallang> it keeps auto-repeating, but never jumps after the first
[13:47] <titus.tallang> and if you go red it keeps auto-repeating as red
[13:48] <titus.tallang> oh and going red also gives you a targeting thingy for some reason as if you had just activated it
[13:49] <ccp_larrikin> it shouldn't, its broken
[13:50] <5pitf1re> @ccp_larrikin: what about this, caldari/amarr keep their resist bonuses but lose one tank slow each and minmatar/gallente gain one tank slot each?
[19:20] <noobman> Flex Shield Hardeners use powerful but bulky resonance coils to project a constructive interference pattern across a ship's shields. These patterns can increase shield resistances against all damage types, or to provide increased protection against one specific damage type with the aid of swappable scripts.
[19:20] <noobman> Note: Only one of this module type can be fitted at a time. May only be fitted to capital ships
[20:50] <xttz> Is it intentional that caps can still fit remote reps?
[22:09] <ccp_fozzie> Yes, the current design doesn't restrict the fitting of remote reps on carriers/supers. We've decreased the base rep/second of capital remote reps to ~20% of the previous rate and buffed triage to compensate
[22:12] <5pitf1re> :confused:
[22:12] <5pitf1re> What is the rationale behind this?
[22:14] <ccp_fozzie> to replace ultrapowerful spidertanking with triage (which can be chipped away)
[22:14] <5pitf1re> No, as in what's the rationale behind not removing remote reps completely.
[22:15] <ccp_fozzie> if possible we prefer soft barriers to hard ones
[22:15] <ccp_fozzie> are you concerned that it'll still be too strong out of triage?
[22:16] <5pitf1re> Wait, carriers won't have triage post patch, will they?
[22:16] <ccp_fozzie> no they won't
[22:16] <5pitf1re> ok
[22:16] <ccp_fozzie> we can definitely use harder restrictions if it proves nessesary
[22:17] <ccp_fozzie> however if we can leave it at similar power-levels to RRbs (niche but possible) that would be ideal from our perspective
[22:18] <ccp_fozzie> you'll need triage to rep significant amounts and the range bonus that was on carriers has been rolled into the triage module as well
[22:18] <xttz> How come the naglfar only has 3 highs on sisi?
[22:20] <5pitf1re> At what DPS levels or fleet sizes would this niche RR tactic work or what amount of damage is expected to need to break let's say a group of 10 RR archons?
[22:20] <5pitf1re> Fully tanked.
[22:22] <ccp_fozzie> @xttz none of the dread highslots have changed on sisi
[22:23] <ccp_fozzie> @5pitf1re: at current numbers, capital remote reps outside of triage rep ~85% of a large remote rep (with a slight range advantage)
[22:53] <rocket_x> a wild fozzie appears
[22:53] <rocket_x> :3
[22:55] <rocket_x> lol @xttz the nag only has 3 high slots on tq
[22:55] <rocket_x> has dank projectile damage bonus to compensate
[22:59] <xttz> yeah i never fly those
[22:59] <xttz> v0v
[22:59] <rocket_x> :simple_smile:
[22:59] <xttz> only noticed when I was seeing how fast they now go with an MWD