[01:42] <jintaan> @nour_samy: you say Sov War is boring. How does Aegis Sov compare to Dominion Sov in that respect?
[01:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> so I agree with Samy there, so I'll just interject my reply on that and see where he stands on it
[01:44] <jintaan> No worries
[01:44] <jintaan> :moderation:
[01:47] <jintaan> (Obviously id love a reason for why you think either side as well)
[01:49] <caprisunkraftfoods> I feel that Dominion Sov produced much more interesting content. I think there's been a disconnect on what the purpose of the sov system over the last couple years. The focus the last couple years has been too much on the actual ownership, however for most players when you talk to them about the times they've had the most fun in EVE, it's usually during the invasion itself. Like it's more about the journey than the destination.
[01:51] <jintaan> Right, so why _doesnt_ Aegis produce the same content as Dominion?
[01:51] <jintaan> What dissuades fights from happening in Aegis that would have happened in Dominion
[01:53] <caprisunkraftfoods> Because the type of content most players are interested in is the medium-large scale fights, and unlike dominion, the fleet comp that is optimal to winning a timer is usually not the fleet comp that's most suited for those fights
[01:53] <caprisunkraftfoods> take for example the CFC sword fleet
[01:54] <caprisunkraftfoods> that problem with that was purely execution, it wasn't actually a bad idea
[01:54] <caprisunkraftfoods> and it seems to me that you'd hard press to argue that taking around a large interceptor fleet while avoiding fights at all cost is the kind of content most players come to EVE looking for
[01:55] <caprisunkraftfoods> yet in a lot of situations, that is indeed going to be the optimal strategy
[01:56] <raknor> dominion sov was amazing
[01:56] <raknor> it was broke because capitals were ot ballenced
[01:56] <raknor> then ccp ballenced caps
[01:56] <raknor> but they changed the sov sytem first
[01:57] <caprisunkraftfoods> yeah I think that's a big part of it too
[01:57] <caprisunkraftfoods> plonking 50 Aeons on an IHUB today doesn't present anything like the unbeatable force it did 6 months ago
[01:58] <raknor> whats worse is they changed the sov system then made the scaling dps as well
[01:58] <raknor> well
[01:58] <raknor> it does
[01:58] <raknor> but for dif reasons
[01:59] <caprisunkraftfoods> well the point is that now you can drop a monstrous number of dreads on that with a reasonable expectation of actually killing something
[02:00] <raknor> yeah
[02:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> which from the perspective of the guy dropping 50 Aeons means there's a lot more risk
[02:00] <raknor> dread bombs are a lot more effective
[02:01] <raknor> the biggest downside is still the fact that if you chose to take the fight and have fun
[02:01] <raknor> you lose the timer and your sov
[02:01] <raknor> so peole just end up flying around in claws jamming stuff with ecm bursts instead of actually fighting
[02:02] <raknor> and the speed you lose your sov now is unreal
[02:04] <raknor> not to mention the sheer grind you have to do for undefended space is stupid
[02:07] <caprisunkraftfoods> I think in a nut shell it can be put like this: The reason there are less fights is because there are less fleets running around, and the reason for there being less fleets is because they a 100 man battleship fleet serves literally no purpose to winning the timer under the current sov system that isn't equally or better achieved by a small group of for-purpose fitted ships
[02:07] <caprisunkraftfoods> as much as an HP grind sounds like it sucks, it gives you a reason to form a fleet in the first place
[02:07] <raknor> yeah like when you boys first came to CR we won a sov timer with 20 dudes in ceptors against your 40 man ahac fleet
[02:08] <raknor> thats retarded
[02:08] <raknor> well citadels are a HP grind
[02:08] <raknor> so it is not like you have a choice
[02:08] <caprisunkraftfoods> well citadels are a time-grind more than an HP grind
[02:09] <raknor> yeah so is sov
[02:09] <caprisunkraftfoods> like it's going to take exactly 30 minutes regardless of whether you bring 15 dudes in ishtars or 500 dudes in Rattlesnakes
[02:09] <raknor> but at least a citadel everyone is together
[02:09] <caprisunkraftfoods> yeah
[02:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> re the grind time too
[02:10] <raknor> like even if you are offgrid Rfing a ihub you still feel excluded from the group thats sat on station
[02:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> I made this post on reddit a year ago explaining why, but tl;dr this spreadsheet sums it up
[02:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ho7GAMyUD764H0w5zwPGC-eSvtsl5n6TCTi23yzaX7s/edit#gid=0
[02:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> after the phoebe sov structure EHP nerfs, the actual grind involved got pretty severely reduced in a good way
[02:11] <caprisunkraftfoods> like if you turn up today with a 50 man AHAC fleet, it's going to take less time to grind a timer than a 2.2 ADM system
[02:11] <caprisunkraftfoods> thats just for the initial RF
[02:12] <caprisunkraftfoods> then it's going to take insanely less time for the timer itself when you consider how long it's going to take to cap 12 nodes plus waiting for them to spawn
[02:12] <caprisunkraftfoods> old situation, is you have a nice fleet to go fight, new situation is there's frigates, T3Ds, or some kitey nano cruiser fleet to go chase around endlessly
[02:13] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean rak like, we've had fights over sov that have lasted like 2-3 hrs right?
[02:13] <caprisunkraftfoods> of just gay back and forth chasing away recons and nereuses and stuff
[02:14] <caprisunkraftfoods> when realistically both of us would have had more fun just having a good old brawl whatever the outcome
[02:14] <raknor> yup
[02:15] <raknor> the should have had a mechanic that nodes would still spawn but you could instead entosis the orginal structure for like the same time as the intial RF and save it
[02:15] <raknor> force people to actually fight for it
[03:39] <ron_mexxico> Sov is super lame now b/c there's way too much of it and besides the lame ecm burst inty / griffin spam to "defend" nodes it's also pretty easy to just not give a shit about it
[03:40] <ron_mexxico> Either pack up and leave to somewhere else or know somebody isn't going to grind thru everything
[03:40] <ron_mexxico> Which ties into jump ranges as well
[03:40] <ron_mexxico> Also the avatar CPU issues make it less desirable to use in combat
[03:42] <ron_mexxico> Also all the potential for all systems being able to support lots of people doesn't make space much more valuable in different areas of the map
[03:42] <ron_mexxico> Why bother trying to krab your way into good space when some garbage constellation can just be upgraded
[03:44] <ron_mexxico> Null isn't worth living in either due to jump ranges. Somebody is going to be the big man on the block and muscle out everybody else around you. Then want to find content
[03:44] <ron_mexxico> But where do you go with artificial fun-restricting meters such as jump fatigue
[03:45] <ron_mexxico> Also a lot of the space in the game just isn't possible to attack
[03:46] <ron_mexxico> Paragon, a lot of the drone regions, branch, etc
[03:46] <ron_mexxico> If I wanted lets say Paragon soul ... how do I get there? Move slowly thru the whole of the south?
[03:46] <ron_mexxico> Just so I can settle a constellation or 2?
[03:47] <ron_mexxico> For all intents and purposes those outer regions might as not be there
[03:47] <ron_mexxico> All R64 income needs to be buffed and only be found in null
[03:47] <ron_mexxico> Possibly with a way higher concentration in regions bordering empire
[04:02] <garsttyrell> when does the discussion officially "start"
[04:02] <garsttyrell> someone was saying monday?
[04:04] <ron_mexxico> It's technically monday in iceland ))
[04:05] <nour_samy> Technically monday here too :slightly_smiling_face: 6am :stuck_out_tongue:
[04:06] <nour_samy> @caprisunkraftfoods: Essentially yes. At least in dominion sov, if you weren't getting a fight, your flet still stuck together, and a flet of 10-15 try hards wouldn't make it utter cancer to burn space down on ~every god damn node~
[04:06] <ron_mexxico> Anyway the entosis sov mechanics aren't in a vacuum
[04:06] <ron_mexxico> It's just the cherry on top of the changes of the past 2 years
[04:07] <ron_mexxico> Also gaming your vuln windows is awful
[04:07] <caprisunkraftfoods> I just think entosis is a bad mechanic
[04:07] <ron_mexxico> If ADM can be based on activity then it should also sort your vuln windows for you during your most active times
[04:08] <caprisunkraftfoods> the goals of it are decent
[04:08] <caprisunkraftfoods> but there are a lot of significantly better ways of achieveing the same thing
[04:09] <ron_mexxico> The "reward" for making somebody evac is orbiting nodes in AUTZ
[04:09] <caprisunkraftfoods> ^
[04:11] <nour_samy> Pretty much. The current sov system is a lot more demanding on time, time that most people can't commit because real life is a thing. Currently it reminds me of the kind of experience or mob farming grinds of most other mmorpgs which is kind of.. cancer. Why I started playing eve and why i'm personally at least starting to get sick of it
[04:11] <nour_samy> And i can safely say the getting sick of it part goes for a lot of other people too
[04:14] <nour_samy> @jintaan: ^
[04:15] <ron_mexxico> I guess something minor that might get overlooked is taking a system isn't an achievement for the group doing it anymore. It's 1 or a small few people who actually do anything
[04:15] <ron_mexxico> Everybody else watches
[04:15] <ron_mexxico> Well they sit on grid
[04:15] <ron_mexxico> Tabbed out
[04:16] <nour_samy> Exactly
[04:16] <garsttyrell> the biggest problem is the fact that there is no difference between an uncontested and contested timer. if I dont defend my r64 you drop dreads and it dies in 5-10 mins
[04:17] <garsttyrell> a random ratting system could take 90-120 mins with 6.0 adm
[04:17] <garsttyrell> without a single defender
[04:17] <ron_mexxico> Or you end up like CFC during the horde evac
[04:17] <ron_mexxico> Losing to decay
[04:17] <garsttyrell> similarly there is no reward for being more skilled as a group. if I bring capitals im just as slow at taking that system as someone in an atron
[04:17] <nour_samy> My first taste of sov war was when NC invaded provi 2-3 years ago, yah we got our shit kicked in but it was fun, because it was a group effort and we got good fights. That just doesn't happen the same way or anywhere near the same frequency in Aegis sov
[04:18] <garsttyrell> I dont think aegis sov is going away, its way too late for them to backpedal on that now although in hindsight modified dominion would have been better, possibly with adm scaled EHP on the structures
[04:18] <garsttyrell> so the focus should just be on ways to make aegis sov more liveable
[04:18] <nour_samy> Unfortunate but true :confused:
[04:19] <nour_samy> Imo, node hacking, and constellation wide bullshit is the real problem. People don't go to nullsec or nullsec alliances for skirmishes
[04:19] <nour_samy> Lowsec has had more fights over citadels and R64 in the last few months than nullsec relatively speaking, that almost never happened before
[04:19] <ron_mexxico> Honestly also
[04:20] <ron_mexxico> If I just wanted 1 system for logistics reasons, I shouldn't have to defend the whole constellation
[04:20] <nour_samy> ^
[04:20] <garsttyrell> thats not going to get anywhere ron
[04:20] <garsttyrell> cause they want people to spread out
[04:20] <garsttyrell> by design for aegis sov
[04:20] <garsttyrell> grrrr blob
[04:20] <nour_samy> Also, what the hell is up with still no transfer system ?
[04:20] <garsttyrell> nour: grr coalitions
[04:21] <garsttyrell> if aegis sov was some attempt to social engineer the end of coalitions, bat phones, blobs, rational human behavior its a debacle that accomplished nothing. the only thing it is has done is make sov fights a frustrating grind that punishes people for playing EVE instead of doing literally anything else with their lives. sov system should be a mere mechanic to facilitate fun combat between alliances that want to participate, it shouldnt try to "fix" human political behavior
[04:23] <ron_mexxico> If that was the goal they missed completely. More friction and higher pop density would imo cause people to break apart more than making the game artificially big and tedious where you NEED raw numbers
[04:24] <ron_mexxico> You have to have this gimmicky fits to not get cheesed by griffins and ecm inties
[04:24] <garsttyrell> ive always liked the idea of them just deleting half the solar systems in this game and hand re-draw the geography to fix trash regions like stain and aridia bottlenecks, and making the goo/sec status dynamic
[04:24] <garsttyrell> like it would gradually shift over time
[04:24] <garsttyrell> to encourage conflict and movement
[04:24] <nour_samy> I'll share my thinking on this and hope it makes some sort of sense :stuck_out_tongue:
[04:24] <nour_samy> My thinking is this: EVE isn't nice, and nullsec isn't a kumbaya let's all hold our hands and everyone matters sort of thing. A 10 man gang shouldn't be able to dismantle a 200 man fleet's efforts by simply being annoying as fuck and evading them competly. What I feel Aegis sov tried to do is make everyone valuable, problem is, they already where, what it's done is devalue anyone that isn't hacking a node, and add way too much value to the try hards that don't know they've lost yet.
[04:25] <garsttyrell> aegis sov could be liveable, not ideal but less horrible than it is now, with a few changes
[04:25] <garsttyrell> remove entosis from any capitals, enable rr on the entosis ship, lower t2 range down to 150km, remove ability for an entosis and cloak to be online at the same time, etc
[04:25] <garsttyrell> small changes programming wise that would have huge meta implications
[04:26] <garsttyrell> thats the way forward IMO, dont tell ccp to scrap the system but try to make the current one workable. they are never gonna scrap aegis sov and admit it was a flawed mistake
[04:28] <nour_samy> mhm, agreed.
[04:29] <nour_samy> What are you recommending though ?
[04:29] <nour_samy> Or rather what do you have in mind ?
[04:29] <garsttyrell> I just named 4 changes
[04:30] <garsttyrell> I have a document with ideas ive been mulling over and discussing with my coalition and fcs, but the csm groups primer is "dont give ideas just talk abotu what the problems are"
[04:30] <nour_samy> Oh sorry :stuck_out_tongue: haven't had coffe yet :confused:
[04:30] <nour_samy> didn't see that
[04:30] <garsttyrell> presumably so we can find out in 3 months the solution to ecm griffin spam by CCP will be acceleration gates on every node like fw:x
[04:30] <nour_samy> lol
[04:32] <nour_samy> Speaking of FW, i had an idea a few days back, on structures/nodes something like sentry guns, equivlant dps of for example a small gun on a pos or something to dissalow 1 nerd in a griffin hacking or something. But yah
[04:32] <nour_samy> Who's keeping track of the problems ?
[04:36] <nour_samy> Okay so for the sake of pushing the discussion forward, we're supposed to talk about nullsec in general not just fozziesov
[04:36] <nour_samy> What's everyone's thoughts on jump fatigue / ly limit as it is right now ?
[04:36] <ron_mexxico> :puke:
[04:37] <nour_samy> I actually think the jump fatigue is a decent balance mechanic, but the ly limit is horrible
[04:40] <garsttyrell> ly limit is fine, the accumulation rate is what is annoying
[04:47] <nour_samy> The 7 day cap on fatigue was a good move imo. That being said the rate at which fatigue stacks is really annoying indeed
[04:49] <nour_samy> Anything about ship balance or doctrine meta in nullsec ?
[07:35] <jintaan> I'm happy to hear about balance stuff, but it is secondary to this other stuff.
[07:36] <jintaan> @ron_mexxico: why is population density not high enough right now, what prevents it?
[07:37] <jintaan> I'm also hearing that people aren't liking the Entosis mechanic. Would returning some element of a structure grind, perhaps by using the citadel damage cap help mitigate that?
[07:38] <jintaan> (Yes I know, that is a solution, but I'm prodding on the subject of having more people in fleet actively participate in the grind)
[07:49] <nour_samy> I personally would be in favor of a citadel like damage thing with regards to sov structures
[07:50] <nour_samy> at least then you would be able to force/commit to a fight in one place, and if there are no defenders you'd know more or less exactly how long it's going to take, which would help grow fleet numbers since no uncertainty in duration and you're doing something not sitting in space
[07:50] <jintaan> *nods*
[07:51] <jintaan> So it seems that the big thing is that defenders can defend without ever having to engage, and them defending let's them elongate the timer
[07:51] <jintaan> So basically, weaponised boredom 2.0
[07:52] <jintaan> (Would like to have the defensive PoV on that specifically so will note it down to ask Goons when they get in.)
[07:54] <nour_samy> *waves* :stuck_out_tongue:
[07:55] <nour_samy> Defensive wise, it's still horrid, you need constellation wide control/cyno jamming, you need more than enough hackers prestaged etc, yes you hack nodes quicker but idiots are too much of a thing
[07:55] <nour_samy> Still a lot of uncertanty
[07:58] <jintaan> Ah yeah forgot on that side
[07:58] <jintaan> Lol
[07:59] <jintaan> So I'm hearing Entosis come up as an issue there again
[07:59] <jintaan> In that it's an artificial demand placed on logistics as you feel Entosis is best done in specialised ships
[08:04] <nour_samy> Unless you have enough people to spread them over 6-7 systems and still be combat effective, usually entosis ships are on their own. One of two things, you have a specialized QRF fleet in T3Ds or assault frigates to roam and protect hackers as needed, or use something like entosis oversized prop rapiers or falcons that can stay safe ish on their own
[08:05] <nour_samy> And these ships then become useless in an actual fight if one does happen, they're relegated to a purly one job ship, which frustrates the people in them since they get none of the content when it does actually happen, leading to entosis alts or just no entosis specialized ships at all
[08:08] <jintaan> So, basically, Aegis Sov incentivises fast small gang, but the actual mechanics of the game make singular, big, slow fleets better?
[08:10] <nour_samy> Pretty much. And not even fast small gang though, it's more, Who can troll the other guy the most
[08:10] <nour_samy> Whatever you tell me you can't say that being forced to use either Capitals, or stuff like oversized prop cloacky recons incentives more content
[08:11] <nour_samy> If you have enough control to drop entosis caps, you've already won
[08:11] <nour_samy> You're just then forced to grind out nodes for 1-2 hours at best
[08:12] <jintaan> *nods*
[08:12] <jintaan> I get the feeling my notepad is going to be very full of notes by the end of this
[08:29] <nour_samy> Quite likely :slightly_smiling_face:
[08:42] <jintaan> Hello Gorski
[08:49] <cptpatrickarcher> To fix fozziesov they need to reduce the amount of nodes that spawn to 3 tops initially, with another 3 spawning afterwards (then you have won).
[08:49] <cptpatrickarcher> Increase the capture % per node. This way it's quicker to secure an uncontested timer. And if there is a fight, grid control on nodes matters a lot.
[08:49] <cptpatrickarcher> Enable RR on entosis ships. No ship restrictions on entosis.
[08:49] <cptpatrickarcher> Only one node per system.
[08:49] <cptpatrickarcher> Or for the love of God go back to the previous sov, but that ain't happening.
[08:50] <cptpatrickarcher> If done what I suggested you will have more centered fighting, not one fight and another 10 entosis solo dudes secretly deciding the outcome of the battle 5 jumps away.
[08:50] <cptpatrickarcher> Fighting on grids can become a think because the entosis ships now doesn't die after 1.21 seconds of the enemy fleet landing on grid.
[08:51] <nour_samy> I'm kind of against constellation wide node spawning tbh
[08:52] <nour_samy> Limit it, to say one jump from system or something
[08:52] <nour_samy> So you don't have to control an 11 system constellation
[08:59] <jintaan> https://csm11focusgroup.slack.com/archives/null-sec/p1471250952000269
[09:00] <jintaan> On node spawn, can you talk about that in a more reasoned cause-effect way?
[09:00] <jintaan> Like; too many nodes form for a fleet to realistically commit to?
[09:00] <cptpatrickarcher> Well yeah, sour. But the entire point of aegis was to spread it out. So I don't think they will remove that aspect.
[09:01] <jintaan> What is your reasoning behind RR on Entosis, can you explain the problem that draws you to that solution?
[09:02] <cptpatrickarcher> All our hate from entosis comes from the fact that all those alts do is getting ganked. Grid control means 0, because your 200 man fleet can't stop 10 petes from killing your entosis ship, even when you are on grid.
[09:02] <cptpatrickarcher> You can't remote ecm against 1 griffins
[09:02] <cptpatrickarcher> Etc
[09:03] <cptpatrickarcher> You might as well not be on the entosis grid. which is what you see happen nowadays
[09:04] <cptpatrickarcher> The entosis role is the least fun thing ccp ever introduced. In a 200 man fleet I'm very happy when I get 10 entosis alts, 3 of which will be my own. Ppl hate it, yet it still decides the outcome of the fight.
[09:04] <cptpatrickarcher> So by allowing rr, the entosis ship can be a main and becomes part of the fleet agaim
[09:05] <jintaan> Are you ok with the Entosis mechanic other than the RR thing, though?
[09:05] <jintaan> And why do you feel it is less fun than any other role, what defines it as an unfun role in your mind?
[09:06] <cptpatrickarcher> And in response to the reduced amount of nodes spawning. It's a fantasy that ppl will split fleets up, because the big fleet will just thru all the small ones. So by reducing nodes, you centre fleets more and a single node becomes more important. Which means ppl are more likely to fight on an entosis grid
[09:07] <cptpatrickarcher> No it needs the rr, otherwise you keep getting ganked. Entosis on a scale we fight is incredibly unfun because you are 100% helpless.
[09:07] <cptpatrickarcher> You can't fight back because the best entosis ship is a 500mn recon with a cloak. Web and scram every cepter that comes in for a scram and bail while you still can.
[09:09] <cptpatrickarcher> I have threatened to kick people from my corp in order to get them into entosis ships. It shouldnt be like that. Eversince the carrier pass, everyone jumps on every opportunity to fly a chimera. That's what every special role should be like imo.
[09:09] <nour_samy> ^ and unless it's a capital you stand no chance of killing what's shooting it before it dies
[09:09] <cptpatrickarcher> Capitals you can just jam
[09:09] <nour_samy> that ~should~ be fixed
[09:10] <cptpatrickarcher> For dreads and fax yes
[09:10] <nour_samy> Yep, that's what I meant :slightly_smiling_face:
[09:10] <cptpatrickarcher> If ccp won't allow rr, entosis can never be fun. No matter what gimmick they try to come up with. I don't know why they don't understand that.
[09:11] <cptpatrickarcher> Cause honestly fuck the little guy that wants to hold sov with 6 oracles and a huggin
[09:11] <nour_samy> ^
[09:11] <cptpatrickarcher> He can get some shitty sov, but when someone with 100 comes over. He shouldnt be able to switch to petes or fozzieclaws and just gank node runners
[09:12] <raknor> we had 1 fight where the enemy just formed confessors to frag entosis so i split my mach flet up and had 10 machs and 5 logi sit on everynode
[09:12] <raknor> but like the the eneemy could have formed a decent fleet you cant even do that
[09:13] <raknor> and nothing stops 20 arty claws warping in and vollying your entosis
[09:14] <cptpatrickarcher> Exactly. We face a big fleet plus a gank fleet p much every time. Which means you can't split up cause you will get buttblasted by their main fleet
[09:14] <cptpatrickarcher> The only option is to blob them to fuck, dumpster their main fleet and then split up. All while fighting their entosis and passive regen
[09:15] <cptpatrickarcher> Regen should stop when progress is made on any node for that timer btw. Also when it's been regenning for 1 hour and the attacker picks up, it should start at 0, not at minus 1 hour
[09:16] <cptpatrickarcher> Adm 6 timer that regens for 1,5 hours takes like 50 mins to complete
[09:16] <cptpatrickarcher> 50 minutes for one node only. Wtf
[09:17] <cptpatrickarcher> When fighting over cj vs Ra we spent 6 entosis on more than one occasion. Gxk more recently took 3,5 hours after a 20 min fight at the start.
[09:20] <jintaan> Ok. So you'd say the time commitment is higher than Dominion sov, and that is a major issue?
[09:21] <cptpatrickarcher> That is one big issue yes. But the helplessness of entosis and endless opportunities to get trolled is what really pisses people off.
[09:21] <cptpatrickarcher> Which simply needs to change.
[09:21] <jintaan> *nods*
[09:22] <jintaan> Personally I'm of the opinion that Entosis should die
[09:22] <jintaan> But I'm happy to look at the reasons why people do or don't like it
[09:22] <cptpatrickarcher> Same, but I doubt that will happen. so let's try to make it better
[09:30] <cptpatrickarcher> Anyways imma fly home now. I'll be back tonight.
[09:47] <nour_samy> How about give entosis links a resist nerf when onlinr
[09:48] <nour_samy> Like 30% for t1 and 20-15% for t2
[09:51] <jintaan> might work, but ~solutions
[09:53] <jintaan> I'd be interested to see if the 'Aegis takes too much time as you can't force an enemy fleet to commit, even as they defend' is something other FCs agree with
[09:54] <nour_samy> Not really about forcing them to commit. It just takes too much time
[09:57] <jintaan> Because you're able to defend in a way that doesn't put you at risk?
[09:59] <nour_samy> Not only that. But even if they dont defend at all
[09:59] <cptpatrickarcher> Ive taken 4 regions as tri and done entosis in the north too. Id like to think ive got a pretty good idea on how to play fozziesov.
[10:00] <cptpatrickarcher> Everyone always grrr tri bitching again on reddit. But we just do so much :p
[10:10] <killahbee> god how haven't you hung yourself on the next possible bridge yet
[10:10] <killahbee> aegis sov is either dealing with ecm inties running with a below 2s align time so they are almost impossible to catch
[10:11] <killahbee> or you just use entosis fax
[10:11] <killahbee> which is gameover for any entity that cant compete with you in the area
[10:11] <killahbee> unless that ecm burst thing on triage is intended then I guess
[10:12] <killahbee> you can do something about entosis triage
[10:13] <jintaan> ECM burst on triage will be removed soon
[10:14] <killahbee> so yea
[10:14] <killahbee> they will be completely invuln at that point
[10:14] <jintaan> But, with regards to Entosis triage, would that be any different with changes to the Entosis mechanic?
[10:14] <killahbee> depends what changes you thinking about
[10:14] <jintaan> If someone can't kill a triage now, how will they in the future
[10:15] <killahbee> I think the entire sov system encourages you to run around in risk averse doctrines
[10:15] <killahbee> instead of fighting it out
[10:15] <jintaan> Oh I agree
[10:15] <jintaan> But I'm trying to get to the game mechanic core of that
[10:15] <killahbee> again the only fight aegis sov has ever worked in the way fozzie probably imagined it
[10:15] <killahbee> was m-o
[10:15] <killahbee> but that was a 6000 man fight
[10:15] <jintaan> I mean when you poked our sov
[10:15] <killahbee> so thats awefu
[10:15] <jintaan> We could have just gayed it out
[10:15] <killahbee> it takes 6k people
[10:15] <jintaan> But we decided to fight because it's fun
[10:15] <killahbee> to make aegis sov work
[10:16] <jintaan> Yeah
[10:16] <jintaan> I actually think Fozzie thinks his sov should be 10 man AT style fights
[10:17] <jintaan> But that's because everything he's ever touched has been balanced for that kind of idealistic environment
[10:17] <jintaan> Not because of him saying such
[11:08] <killahbee> Well I am sure he knows it wont fly that way
[11:08] <killahbee> ^^
[11:10] <jintaan> I'm not quite as sure
[11:10] <jintaan> But vOv
[11:11] <nour_samy> Ego is a wonderful thing :stuck_out_tongue: The way fozzie sov works is more in line with faction warfare than nullsec
[11:12] <nour_samy> Nullsec has never been about the small 10 man fights
[11:12] <nour_samy> and it never will be
[11:16] <jintaan> Mhmm
[11:16] <jintaan> And FW is hilariously risk averse compared to null
[11:32] <gorskicar> you wot
[11:32] <gorskicar> m8
[11:32] <gorskicar> fight me now
[11:33] <nour_samy> 1v1 in noob ships at sun ?
[11:34] <gorskicar> wonder if its enough risk for him ))
[11:34] <nour_samy> pfft, won't even be fit, civilan blaster ftw
[11:41] <jintaan> You'd shit on me cos you're actually good Gorski
[11:41] <jintaan> But you know also the wallhacks and aimbots
[11:41] <gorskicar> fw isn't risk averse we barely have krabs
[11:41] <gorskicar> links sure
[11:41] <gorskicar> but thats about to change
[11:42] <nour_samy> No offence to fw but lol ?
[11:42] <nour_samy> Frigates all day erry day
[11:42] <gorskicar> thats because of fw site restrictions
[11:42] <nour_samy> Never seen a serious pitched battle billions lost br from fw
[11:44] <gorskicar> lol
[11:46] <gobbins> For the system to work two things should happen
[11:46] <gobbins> 1. successfully maintaining space should always be rewarded - if I hold a system for six months it should become more valuable than it was on day one. Current "upgrades" can be maxed 24 hours after moving in a new home making it nearly pointless to defend because its so easy to rebuild
[11:46] <gobbins> 2. successfully attacking someone's space should always be rewarded - if someone fails to defend their space the attackers should be able to enjoy a large bounty from tearing down the infrastructure
[11:50] <jintaan> 1 is likely to never happen as CCP doesn't want a defender to have a large economic advantage over the attacker
[11:51] <jintaan> Though I agree that holding and working space should mean far more than it does currently
[11:52] <jintaan> With regards to 2, how do you think this could deal with timezones?
[11:52] <nour_samy> 2 is also very good point and something that i'm getting a very good perspective on from FCON, day after day sov wanding with little or no reward until SW welps a fleet into us
[11:53] <nour_samy> Line members are un-interested in fleets because of the huge time investment with no reward
[11:53] <gobbins> The attacked can have its own space or be rich from pillaging bad defenders, I dont understand why it would generate an economic advantage.
[11:54] <gobbins> Say you have Rome and the Barbarians. Should building Rome make it more profitable than a patch of land in the middle of nowhere? And shouldn't pillaging Rome lead to a substantial amount of bounty? Thats my line of thinking
[11:55] <nour_samy> Oh also. Please transfer system
[11:55] <nour_samy> Lack of transfer system puts up huge complications
[11:57] <jintaan> Yeah that's something I'll talk about
[11:57] <jintaan> @gobbins: the question is, should randoms be able to just pillage you whilst you're asleep?
[11:57] <gobbins> by pillage I mean attacker winning strategic timers
[11:58] <gobbins> in the current aegis sov: winning fozzie timers
[11:58] <jintaan> Ok
[11:58] <jintaan> I actually do have a proposal in mind but I won't be posting it until after the summit
[12:00] <gobbins> But I still think TCUs should generate a small amount of isk that gradually increases over time and can grow large. Part of that isk is trapped in the TCU and recovered when the TCU is destroyed (which also resets the system to low profit).
[12:00] <jintaan> *nods*
[12:01] <jintaan> Similar to something a few other people discussed with me
[12:02] <jintaan> But that's a good future thing
[12:03] <jintaan> Can you get to the core of what that would incentivise, and why you think it's lacking/needed
[12:07] <gobbins> Indeed. It would incentivise expanding and attacking. It would also reward those who resist those attacks rather than simply relocating.
[12:07] <gobbins> In the current system, if you are my neighboor, why would I take your constellation? Unless I have renters to put there it is worthless. Entire alliances can live off a few systems thanks to upgrades.
[12:26] <jintaan> I actually think population density is too low right now
[12:26] <jintaan> But that's besides the point
[12:26] <jintaan> Duly noted
[12:33] <jintaan> Those are some good points to add to my notes
[13:00] <gorskicar> increasing population density isn't the easiest
[13:02] <jintaan> Oh agreed
[13:03] <jintaan> I think one of the core problems is that we have Dominion style PvE and Aegis Sov
[13:03] <jintaan> But that's nothing to do with combat so I don't want to get into it.
[14:37] <ironwulf> Hey dudes, holy back scroll
[14:39] <gobbins> you can help solve population density by rewarding people that are undocked, better yet reward people for moving across gates
[14:41] <gobbins> maybe ADM should go up or down based on how long you sit on a gate or how long hostiles do
[14:45] <raknor> that would be gamed with alts
[14:45] <ironwulf> Agreed
[14:46] <ironwulf> The manipulation on that could be pretty high
[14:48] <nour_samy> I also don't understand the purpose
[14:48] <raknor> the rewards of sov are great
[14:48] <raknor> i dont think you need to increase them
[14:48] <raknor> the risks thoug are pretty high
[14:49] <raknor> i mean it only takes 2 days to lose your staging system
[14:49] <raknor> not to mention for a good chunk of nullsec you cant even escape a region meaning your capital and super capital assets are stuck basically forever
[14:50] <raknor> or you can to a FA and slowly feed them trying to evfac
[14:54] <ironwulf> The losing part though comes in multiple problems. Stated earlier was how winning the fight doesn't mean you win the nodes. Also the commitment from both sides. The current meta is using inty frig entosis ect.
[14:55] <ironwulf> I agree that either condensing space is a good idea or more regional gates to high or low so nothing is out of reach
[14:55] <caprisunkraftfoods> if you ask anyone who's been around for a while what their favourite times in EVE were
[14:55] <caprisunkraftfoods> they're going to tell you about invasions and wars
[14:55] <caprisunkraftfoods> not the ownership
[14:55] <ironwulf> Pre 2010
[14:56] <caprisunkraftfoods> like most of the "fun" in sov is the taking not the holding
[14:56] <jintaan> My personal best time in the game was pre-PL third partying HERO war
[14:56] <caprisunkraftfoods> yeah even then jintaan, that's still an active war right?
[14:57] <caprisunkraftfoods> no one ever said "man I had a lot of fun ratting in my afk ishtar today, 100% worth subbing for"
[14:57] <ironwulf> I miss the good fights before supers and titans became a thing.
[14:57] <jintaan> @caprisunkraftfoods: difference between nullbears and PvPers
[14:58] <jintaan> PvErs PvE and only care about PvP
[14:58] <jintaan> Visa versa for PvPers
[14:59] <jintaan> @ironwulf: I have my unique brand of salt against supers but they are necessary in the game :)
[15:02] <ironwulf> Depends how you look at it, Look at the game before supers to now. The change brought a different kind of game out. Before you had more dudes shooting and throwing dread bombs around. So my bias is the game would survive without them
[15:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean
[15:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> EVE is 12 years old
[15:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> I think there are significantly more factors that have changed in the last 7 years than "supers got added"
[15:05] <jintaan> So, what would encourage more border skirmishing or invasions?
[15:05] <jintaan> Or more accurately, what prevents that from occurring right now in your opinion
[15:06] <caprisunkraftfoods> the sov mechanics aren't fun because they don't encourage forming fleets that can fight
[15:06] <caprisunkraftfoods> that's why
[15:07] <jintaan> What mechanics specifically?
[15:07] <jintaan> And what fleet types specifically
[15:07] <jintaan> I'm going to push for as much of a root cause analysis as possible
[15:07] <jintaan> I understand it's probably fucking annoying
[15:08] <jintaan> But I want it in your words rather than me interpreting it
[15:09] <jintaan> (I will likely have a snap Agree/Disagree poll at the end of this that looks to gauge consensus on a few key points)
[15:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> like fundamentally, there is no HP to grind
[15:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> because the best way to grind HP is form a fleet
[15:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> either to grind the HP, or defend (super)caps doing it
[15:10] <jintaan> *nods*
[15:11] <jintaan> And then that fleet is able to be engaged
[15:11] <caprisunkraftfoods> yeah
[15:11] <jintaan> Ok, so that's 100% of people I've talked to that have come to that core point
[15:11] <jintaan> Looks like we've got our first key point
[15:12] <ironwulf> I think the direction they went with citadels is good.
[15:12] <gorskicar> ^ agreee
[15:12] <jintaan> How do you feel about commitment outside of sov stuff, Capri?
[15:12] <caprisunkraftfoods> the most efficient way to run nodes in aegis sov is to get recons with t2 links, orbit the nodes at 200km and run away if anything turns up. that's never going to produce a fight
[15:12] <caprisunkraftfoods> what do you mean?
[15:12] <jintaan> Do you feel you're adequately rewarded for going balls deep w/ caps and BS'
[15:12] <jintaan> Like, in a fight
[15:13] <jintaan> Take away the sov system for a second
[15:13] <jintaan> Do you feel you'd be advantaged fully committing to a fight vs kiting it away?
[15:14] <ironwulf> Really only thing that sparks a fight that big is sov citadels and moons.
[15:14] <jintaan> Yup
[15:14] <gorskicar> sov on itself isn't really worth anything
[15:14] <jintaan> On that point.
[15:14] <jintaan> Drilling platforms
[15:14] <ironwulf> Take sov away since most have adapted the frigate sov thing
[15:14] <caprisunkraftfoods> I think on a fleet level, BS right now are in a really good place
[15:15] <ironwulf> Are they most just roll machs
[15:15] <jintaan> Do you think that sov holding alliances should gain more from using their space vs other alliances using their space?
[15:16] <caprisunkraftfoods> T1 BS are insanely cheap when you factor insurance, bassically like 50m more than flying battlecruisers. and pirate BS are now cheap enough that all total, t2 pirate BS and t2 fit T3s are virtually the same price
[15:16] <caprisunkraftfoods> regular caps are really solid right now
[15:16] <ironwulf> You are right but not many use t1 bs unless you field insane amounts of them
[15:17] <caprisunkraftfoods> I think supers are much more useful now, titans especially, but they're a little hard done by with the current stats on the CHE
[15:17] <ironwulf> Most just roll strat cruisers
[15:17] <caprisunkraftfoods> if hull energizers got nerfed just a tiny bit I think the capital balance would be spot on
[15:17] <caprisunkraftfoods> well iron horde are using maels and typhoons atm
[15:18] <caprisunkraftfoods> both solid cheap t1 bs platforms that work just fine with t1 guns
[15:18] <caprisunkraftfoods> @gobbins: can probably comment more on that
[15:19] <ironwulf> Maels are great in 50 plus numbers yes. The typhoons are also very good. I'm just saying that these dudes can also field large numbers of them like you and I can field 100 machs.
[15:20] <ironwulf> Side note 1 more mid on the abaddon would be sweet
[15:20] <ironwulf> :sunglasses:
[15:20] <jintaan> Side note
[15:20] <jintaan> Amarr Victor
[15:20] <jintaan> (I'm the CVA CSM in case you didn't know)
[15:21] <caprisunkraftfoods> baddons don't need +1 mid, they need their cap regen bassically doubled lol
[15:21] <ironwulf> I'd go with that
[15:22] <caprisunkraftfoods> but yeah like that's a side thing just re cap balance
[15:22] <caprisunkraftfoods> Hull Energizers on dreads are kinda OP
[15:22] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean that fight we had in oka where 4 titans died
[15:22] <caprisunkraftfoods> we had over 30 titans and 50 supers
[15:22] <caprisunkraftfoods> the total number of dreads dropped was 84 I think
[15:23] <caprisunkraftfoods> and it took us literally half an hour in 80-50% tidi to kill them all
[15:23] <nour_samy> Rokh suffers from a cap problem too, that could use some love
[15:23] <caprisunkraftfoods> hey logibro \o
[15:23] <nour_samy> Hello o7
[15:23] <jintaan> o7
[15:23] <jintaan> He's just here to observe
[15:23] <jintaan> (I think)
[15:24] <nour_samy> Big brother is watching. :open_mouth:
[15:24] <caprisunkraftfoods> I think if you scaled the CHE duration from 20/22 to 13/15 it'd probably be fine
[15:25] <nour_samy> T1 battleships are fine as they are, maybe the missile based ones like Raven/Typhoon could use a slight buff, cap issue on abbadons/rokhs, and then you'd have a wide range of doctrines to pick from
[15:25] <nour_samy> Dominix's are still viable although really annoying and only work in massive blobs
[15:25] <caprisunkraftfoods> because right now the meta is one side dropping FAXes with CHEs, and the other side dropping dreads with CHEs, and just activating them one-by-one as you get primaried
[15:26] <nour_samy> While we're talking doctrines, I would love to see some HAC's getting buffed to be competitve choices next to cerbs, we're kind of a similar situation to ishtars, where cerbs kind of smash everything their size and smaller with no competition
[15:27] <nour_samy> (Zealot <3)
[15:27] <nour_samy> I won't comment on caps because I have little experience with that and none in the current meta
[15:27] <nour_samy> But, what I did notice was that active tanked and passive tanked dreads both tanked similar EHP's, but active ones had a chance to survive longer basically
[15:27] <caprisunkraftfoods> Zealots are honestly dope right now, the only reason people aren't using them is Proteuses/Legions do the same much better for not significantly more cost
[15:28] <nour_samy> FCON has a zealot doctrine right now, I personally love it but never get enough of them :cry:
[15:28] <nour_samy> And going up against cerbs it's kind of a gamble
[15:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> oh yeah I mean
[15:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> they're an AHAC doctrine
[15:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> T3s will have just the same problems
[15:28] <ironwulf> Ya strat cruisers get some kind of slap might make hacs cool again
[15:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> except prots have that hilarious kinetic resist
[15:29] <nour_samy> and legions explosive
[15:29] <nour_samy> prot/legion actually has less range than zealots actually.
[15:29] <caprisunkraftfoods> also kinetic is the lowest resist on most t2 amarr fits
[15:29] <nour_samy> I said actually twice :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:29] <caprisunkraftfoods> so they're extremely vulnerable in the current cerb/railgun meta
[15:30] <nour_samy> I think the cerb range should be shortened, not by much, but right now maxed out toon gets 150km, doing max dps is kind of broken
[15:30] <nour_samy> Speaking as a frequent cerb user previously
[15:31] <nour_samy> Also, cerb vs cerb fights are usually who can kite better because of that ridiclous range
[15:31] <caprisunkraftfoods> tbh I think cerbs are fine, just unironically needs a meta shift for a reliable counter to be found
[15:32] <caprisunkraftfoods> like I can tell you right now that Machs trash cerbs so hard it's not even funny
[15:32] <nour_samy> I know
[15:32] <nour_samy> So do maelstroms
[15:32] <caprisunkraftfoods> because even at 150km, 30 machs will alpha cerbs ez
[15:32] <nour_samy> :heart: alpha
[15:32] <caprisunkraftfoods> heh
[15:32] <nour_samy> But, that's two doctrines that hard counter cerbs, both battleships with limited mobility (Well not machs but ~moving on~
[15:32] <nour_samy> Aside from a tengu blob of about 50ish dps tengus you won't break cerbs at max range
[15:33] <nour_samy> I'm not saying we need more hard counters, but we need something to be competitve I mean
[15:33] <nour_samy> Have more than these 3 options you know ? Cerbs/Tengus/Machs
[15:34] <nour_samy> Battle cruiser buff was a solid move, in that direction, FCON regurly uses HFI/sleip fleets to great effect
[15:34] <nour_samy> would love to see more of that for cruisers and HACs
[15:34] <caprisunkraftfoods> I spent a lot of time before WWB kicked off fighting 2x+ our numbers in hurricanes with cerbs
[15:34] <caprisunkraftfoods> thats pretty nasty
[15:34] <caprisunkraftfoods> like while in theory cerbs hit out from 145km
[15:34] <nour_samy> HFI/sleip can hard counter cerbs with a good FC and a fleet that listens
[15:34] <nour_samy> FCON has done it several times in branch and in TAL war
[15:35] <caprisunkraftfoods> realistically you can only do 110-120 because of your fleet members skills
[15:35] <caprisunkraftfoods> yeah they can
[15:35] <nour_samy> Another thing that makes cerbs OP in my opinion is just how versatile they are, only thing that comes close is refitting machs from arty to auto, granted you can't do it on the grid but unless spies you don't know what you're getting
[15:36] <nour_samy> HAMs heavy missiles or light missiles
[15:36] <ironwulf> Rapids
[15:36] <ironwulf> Are pretty decent on cerbs
[15:37] <nour_samy> They are, and reload time kind of balances it actually, so they're ~okay~
[15:38] <ironwulf> While we were talking about alpha. Fc module that gives you a buff to help getting Alpha off field. The ultimate fight killer
[15:39] <nour_samy> Could just have logi pre rep you, granted if you're going up against a hundred machs that wouldn't help much
[15:40] <gobbins> I think one approach to solving nullsec, is to see what works and adding more of it.
[15:40] <gobbins> For example money moons are great. They are simple, they make isk, people fight over them.
[15:40] <nour_samy> I think CCP or someone suggested dedicated FC ships with super tank and some probing but no other use, that would be cool.
[15:40] <nour_samy> @gobbins Shame they're going away in a couple of months
[15:40] <nour_samy> Only thing worth fighting over left will be citadels and the other structures
[15:40] <caprisunkraftfoods> I remember a thing nulli did around 2014 was take RLML cerbs, warp at zero on logi, overheat on scimis, then warp off when reload hit
[15:41] <gobbins> Make all nullsec like moons, but with smaller scale. Every system should be profitable - even if it just a tiny wee little. And the barrier of entry for harvesting small profit and for attacking it should be appropriate.
[15:41] <nour_samy> Yep capri, that's how RLML cerbs win
[15:41] <nour_samy> They utterly anihlate logi
[15:42] <nour_samy> Similar to alpha fleets if you want to clear the fight quick. In my HFI/sleip fleets if we're going aftr winning a timer i split guns and go through 2/3rds or a 3/4s of the hostile fleet logi before I start anihlating dps or in rare situations go for headshot
[15:42] <nour_samy> I personally never headshot, unless they try to head shot me :slightly_smiling_face: I take it personally :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:43] <nour_samy> Speaking of logi, T2 armor logi could use some love I think, the nerf to their cycle time is just....
[15:43] <nour_samy> Maybe reduce the rep amount a bit and quicken cycle time slightly, to balance it out
[15:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> with links they still land in the same number of ticks
[15:44] <nour_samy> What's the cycle time ? 5 seconds with links ?
[15:45] <caprisunkraftfoods> both now and before they land in 3.something ticks
[15:46] <nour_samy> Hmmm, i'm of the opinion that something that would help to see more variety in doctrines is buffing t2 armor logi slightly. From what I see it's usually shield spam or FAXes because armor just doesn't cycle fast enough
[15:46] <nour_samy> If we had machs I'd personally have at least 2 apostles on standby within jump range at all times just because I know T2 logi won't survive in armor
[15:48] <gobbins> am I retarded to think atm the variety in doctrine is better than it was at most stages in this game? especially when you factor in ecm burst + mass magus kind of support wing
[15:49] <gobbins> like going back which time in eve did we have more variety in doctrines?
[15:49] <carneros> It does seem more varied to me as well.
[15:50] <carneros> My perspective can be skewed by having mostly been in large alliances/coalitions.
[15:50] <nour_samy> From my perspective what I see is 4-5 doctrines at best, granted it's better than in the past but you know, could be more, 150 ships or something in EVE :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:51] <nour_samy> Railgus are making a comeback, cerbs, machs, maels, Typhoons on some level (Though they're usually kind of trash)/Rattles)
[15:51] <nour_samy> Granted it is better than in the past
[15:51] <nour_samy> Oh, and armor T3s
[15:51] <nour_samy> Oh, this seems like something so far avoided
[15:52] <nour_samy> T3Ds
[15:52] <gorskicar> like mass beam fessors or just svipuls
[15:52] <gorskicar> ?
[15:52] <nour_samy> both
[15:53] <nour_samy> Speaking from experience, I felt bad about tearing apart a SU mach fleet in svipuls, outnumbered
[15:56] <ironwulf> I mean do you though.
[15:56] <ironwulf> Is it your fault they weren't set up right
[16:00] <nour_samy> No I don't :stuck_out_tongue: They were actually set up right though, and I fucked up my links (wrong system)
[16:00] <nour_samy> I personally like the fact that a group with "inferior" ships can make a bigger group bleed
[16:00] <nour_samy> Just want to see what the others think
[16:02] <ironwulf> I do believe that Svipul and confessor has some advantages over the others. A arty Svipul can easy do 500-700 dps shirt range. I mean it's worth a look at
[16:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> wut
[16:03] <nour_samy> Hecate always was more of a solo/small gang ship with regards to its bonuses
[16:03] <nour_samy> and jackdaw is very good as a support role
[16:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> arty svipuls do like ~250 dps
[16:03] <nour_samy> Confessor/svipul always seemed to be the fleet ships
[16:03] <nour_samy> and yah arty svips do trash DPS :stuck_out_tongue:
[16:03] <nour_samy> You need 50 or so at face ~f***~ range to kill T2 logi
[16:04] <gorskicar> to me beam fessors always seemed like the best choice for fleets
[16:04] <nour_samy> There's a couple of vids of me FCing them in fights in the TAL wars if you wanna take a look at how they fight, one of them si with comms
[16:04] <gorskicar> svipul being more of a gatecamp/solo cancer ship
[16:04] <nour_samy> Problem with beam confessor is the range is tied to sharp shooter mode, kind of why I don't like it
[16:04] <nour_samy> and reps at end of cycle make svipul better as far as survival
[16:05] <nour_samy> It was T2 frigate logi that made T3D doctrines viable
[16:06] <nour_samy> Interesting to note, provi used T2 frigate logi with their phantasms on a bunch of fun brawls we had, those things are nearly impossible to kill, and i was multifri in beam zealots with tracking speed script loaded
[16:06] <nour_samy> Farthest i got was 30% armor on a deacon
[16:07] <gorskicar> yeah t2 frig logi with EM link have such a tiny tiny sig
[16:08] <nour_samy> Even drone blobs have trouble, unless you get luck with transversal or you have 20 target painters :stuck_out_tongue:
[16:08] <nour_samy> but hardest counter to T3D fleets is talwars or cormorants
[16:09] <nour_samy> Isk trade goes horrible for the T3Ds
[16:09] <ironwulf> Ya had a fight last night confessors and deacons
[16:09] <ironwulf> Confessor died logi sailed into the sun
[16:11] <nour_samy> Iron, what alliance are you ?
[16:11] <ironwulf> Short bus syndicate
[16:11] <nour_samy> Ah ty
[16:12] <nour_samy> Sorry, not really in the loop of who's who in EVE :slightly_smiling_face:
[16:12] <ironwulf> Was in darkness previously
[16:17] <raknor> eve has never had a ton of viable comps
[16:18] <raknor> because it only takes the smallest of advantages to make something dominant
[16:18] <nour_samy> Very true, but I can dream :slightly_smiling_face: (I'm 18 so, i'm allowed to be a bit naive :wink: )
[16:19] <raknor> like what are people actually complaining? they dont like winning or my harvringer fleet should be able to win 'because'
[16:20] <garsttyrell> I think one potential issue with doctrines is that prices have come down so sharply
[16:20] <garsttyrell> theres no real reason to fly anything except faction bs or t3s
[16:20] <garsttyrell> not saying I dont like that, but some small tweaks to nerf aspects of the machs could probably even out the playing field a bit more
[16:21] <nour_samy> What do you have in mind garst ? Maybe one less mid slot or less fall off ?
[16:21] <garsttyrell> rattlesnakes are getting used a lot im seeing recently by all sorts of groups, but after having flown them the most of any post s2n alliance for the last couple years I think there is a lot of drawbacks to them and they are balanced. machs are just op straight up
[16:22] <garsttyrell> machs can do perfect armor OR shield tank, they fly faster which makes a big difference both in warp and normal velocity, their arties do 10k alpha (problem with large arties in general) or you can brawl with autocannons although thats inferior to the arty doctrine or rattlesnake
[16:23] <garsttyrell> its just a lot of small things that add up
[16:23] <nour_samy> To me it's the warp speed that makes machs so appealing
[16:23] <garsttyrell> IMO I really dont like the alpha meta that got buffed when minmatar was shit back in like 2010, the fact that t1 guns with no training can be used to get 80% of the effectiveness of the ship, compared to t2 lasers which need training for scorch or aurora to be viable
[16:23] <nour_samy> Maels are basically shield machs but slower
[16:23] <nour_samy> and lower lock range
[16:24] <garsttyrell> I hate fighting alpha doctrines, I dont know if anyone actually LIKES fighting alpha spam doctrines be it svipul or mach
[16:24] <jintaan> @ironwulf: that was suggested at Fanfest
[16:24] <jintaan> As an FC specialist ship
[16:24] <ironwulf> Ahhh I never caught up
[16:25] <ironwulf> With fanfest
[16:25] <garsttyrell> I know sort is a big advocate of the fc ships but honestly idc, I cant remember the last time i've lost an fc tengu or legion
[16:25] <garsttyrell> maybe like in 2000 man fights
[16:25] <ironwulf> I don't usually either but I will admit I have taken some fcs out
[16:26] <ironwulf> Constan4
[16:26] <nour_samy> mhm
[16:26] <nour_samy> I've lost and taken out
[16:26] <nour_samy> @garsttyrell: I agree about fighting alpha doctrines, whatver you do you're going to lose shit, and your logi plays almost no part until you whittle down their numbers till they can't straight up alpha anymore
[16:26] <ironwulf> Garst is right on about alpha though
[16:27] <nour_samy> I say that being a big fan and user of alpha doctrines
[16:27] <ironwulf> Yes and no only so much a logi team can do
[16:27] <nour_samy> FCON HFIs/Hurricanes anihlated a SW proteus fleet
[16:27] <nour_samy> Fun, but broken
[16:27] <jintaan> I enjoy fighting alpha doctrines
[16:28] <jintaan> As they have a clear breakpoint, and reward good piloting
[16:28] <jintaan> And communication
[16:28] <nour_samy> Hey, you can beat them, they're good and fun. You are right jintaan, but it is kind of Over powered right now
[16:28] <jintaan> Fighting AlphaFleets outmumbered is pretty gay
[16:28] <nour_samy> Like in most situations I'd take hfi/hurricanes or sleips over zealots because they're just... better
[16:28] <jintaan> IMO a buff to the other faction BCs would help there
[16:29] <jintaan> Or to T1BS
[16:29] <nour_samy> Battle cruisers already got a buff, don't think it's happening
[16:29] <nour_samy> Maybe if you do Hacs
[16:29] <nour_samy> that would make sense
[16:29] <nour_samy> except for the cerb
[16:29] <jintaan> BS' having crappy strategic movement kills them hard
[16:29] <nour_samy> but bring more hacs to the level of the cerb
[16:29] <jintaan> In smaller situations
[16:29] <nour_samy> a general mobility buff to T1 bs would go a long way that's true
[16:30] <jintaan> *nods*
[16:30] <jintaan> At the end of the day this kind of balance talk isn't what this is supposed to be about but it is appreciated
[16:32] <carneros> Going back to the entosis game play, I'd like to say that it's not particularly fun. You don't get much sensation of victory, much chemical rush in your bloodstream regardless if you are winning at defense or offense. I get more kick from catching a 10CP Ratata.
[16:33] <carneros> And if you are in the body of the fleet, waiting for entosers to do stuff, it's even less exciting.
[16:33] <carneros> It felt more of an accomplishment when you had to burn down hit points.
[16:35] <ironwulf> I don't know if maybe a split between the 2. Entosis to reinforce and when it comes out deeps to kill it. Let a lone the ability to set tz
[16:35] <garsttyrell> I started typing up this suggestion document to pass to the csm, if interested you can view what I wrote about fozziesov tweaks and ideas here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J7zMWRivewCX7919NiQDc63TPAa6qicuSQfsR6kUpQA/edit?usp=sharing
[16:38] <gobbins> Entosis has seen 1 single iteration since launch and that's a big part of the issue. Such a big change needed constant tweaking but I feel the community just went full chimpout and the devs went "let them eat citadels"
[16:38] <gobbins> Value of nullsec tho is the biggest issue imo. Mechanics of how to fight over null is also very important but if space is worthless to begin with then no mechanic will solve the problem.
[16:39] <carneros> I feel there is a relationship between the vulnerability window size of citadels and the number of citadels you can have deployed in space at a given moment. If you want people to have lots of citadels in places, you limit the number of hours they are vulnerable. They will keep putting up more citadels until they can no longer manage their timers effectively (or just write them off like we all write off Interdictors.) I think if you doubled the vulnerability window for each citadel, you merely cut down the number of them in space. People will collect them and move them and reuse them.
[16:39] <carneros> I don't think it will have the effect of increasing the number of PVP interactions.
[16:39] <gobbins> The previous problem was that you could hold space *while afk* that needs to go - but the issue now, is there is no reason whatsoever to invade my neighboor because I can sustain my whole alliance out of a 2 max 3 constellations
[16:40] <garsttyrell> gobbins: people have proven taht they are going to fight and claim systems regardless of the perceived current "value" or lack thereof. so waiting to iterate the gameplay mechanics that people are living every day, including the warring coalitions im with atm, until a "value" revamp is uncessary
[16:40] <gobbins> Theres tons of empty space everywhere that no one even wants to look at
[16:40] <garsttyrell> the thing with entosing is, it can be iterated independently from any sov value revamps
[16:40] <garsttyrell> and should have been. to go for a year without them touching literally anything is unconscionable
[16:40] <garsttyrell> blizzard does patches multipel times a month
[16:41] <gobbins> both need looking at, but to breath life into the game you have to make it worth it to start wars
[16:41] <garsttyrell> if you make every constellation valuable, then nothing is valuable. the extreme solution is to delete half the solar systems in this game but that aint gonna happen :X
[16:41] <gobbins> right now wars are basically start out of a desire to cuck nerds
[16:41] <gobbins> no they are still valuable
[16:41] <garsttyrell> delete half the solar systems, and make moon goo and stuff dynamic over time
[16:41] <garsttyrell> reason to invade solved
[16:41] <gobbins> what if every system made 200 mil per month for example?
[16:42] <gobbins> then you'd be trying to hold as much as you can
[16:42] <garsttyrell> there isnt a mechanism without alliance taxes where the alliance directly profits from having more sov for the sake of having more sov
[16:42] <ironwulf> Well isnt that the case now. i mean how much u make off ratting taxes
[16:42] <garsttyrell> the assets are independent, you could theoretically ninja rat in someone elses upgraded ihub system
[16:43] <garsttyrell> and have the same value
[16:43] <ironwulf> That is true but i mean are we talking to the effect of having space value beneficial only to the holder?
[16:44] <ironwulf> that would be interesting
[16:44] <ironwulf> Pretty good write up garst
[16:46] <caprisunkraftfoods> @gorskicar: yeah p much Confessors are best by far if you have hopes of actually tanking
[16:46] <caprisunkraftfoods> svipul is a better brute force DPS doctrine
[16:46] <caprisunkraftfoods> with links a confessor has 28m sig in defensive mode
[16:47] <caprisunkraftfoods> stick an AB on there even light missiles don't apply properly
[16:51] <garsttyrell> 1 web and they do
[16:52] <caprisunkraftfoods> yes strangely enough webs and TPs let you hit thing
[16:52] <caprisunkraftfoods> I'm just saying they're good
[16:53] <caprisunkraftfoods> we had a lot of fun with them until CFC realised you can just burn hurricanes to 60, loading tracking and pop em
[16:58] <gobbins> garst here is a question I would have: does anybody in this channel currently want more space?
[16:58] <nour_samy> FCON, not really.
[16:58] <gobbins> both in your war vs infamous and in WWB it ends up with a ton of empty lands nobody has any use for
[16:59] <gobbins> it shouldnt be like that
[16:59] <nour_samy> In the case of the Talwar, infamous sov is being taken by volt, and what FCON conquered is gonna be handed out, left up for grabs, or renters
[16:59] <gobbins> aye
[16:59] <nour_samy> Actual owned living in the sov
[17:00] <nour_samy> FCON alraedy has more than enough for a 3k man alliance
[17:01] <garsttyrell> gobbins: thats because theres simply too much space in the game and not enough players. maybe 50% of the alliances in nullsec can actually contest and defend sov organically, the other 50% just leech on to whoever is the dominant in the area
[17:01] <garsttyrell> scarcity creates competition
[17:01] <gobbins> well yes, but if removing space is not an option
[17:02] <garsttyrell> naw thats a theoretical exercise, I know it wont happen
[17:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> there'd be no fair way of removing space
[17:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> yeah
[17:02] <gobbins> then at least make the existing space worthwile. like I said before, if every system passively generated at least 200 mil per month wouldnt you start grabbing tcus?
[17:02] <garsttyrell> what WOULD be really interesting, would be some kind of dynamic resource system. so ages ago star wars galaxies minerals depleted and randomly respawned elsewhere, so people legit went out and prospected for the new stuff to mine
[17:02] <garsttyrell> no I wouldnt
[17:02] <garsttyrell> not with the current sov mechanics
[17:02] <gobbins> it'd be like with moons - people grab dat tech and will generate fights over timers
[17:03] <gobbins> yes garst swg was great but then you punish people for building an empire
[17:03] <gobbins> and reward nomads only
[17:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> personally I'm touchy about doing any changes to moons
[17:03] <garsttyrell> it depends on the implementation
[17:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> because right now it is the single remaining reliable and engaging conflict generator
[17:03] <gobbins> ok what if every system generated 2 bil per month garst, would you then?
[17:03] <garsttyrell> it cant be complete rng, it has to have rules
[17:04] <garsttyrell> under the current sov mechanics no, because it takes line members interested go out and do that stuff and they arent going to see any benefits from the alliance wallet having 3000 tcus
[17:04] <garsttyrell> like I said few groups can actually take menaingful objectives on their own
[17:04] <garsttyrell> they arent ever going to be threatened by the ones that cant
[17:04] <gobbins> ah cmon, linemembers bash poses, for 400 mil a month (cadmium)
[17:04] <garsttyrell> and once you have your own, you end up with bot lord
[17:05] <gobbins> ok what if destroying a tcu also meant you get a big chunk of the isk the tcu produced garst? ie my 2 bil / month tcu? every month its storing 300 mil inside it
[17:05] <garsttyrell> shooting a small cad pos takes 5 min and gets people a killmail and lets you undock your dank DPS titan and dread
[17:06] <garsttyrell> shooting a tcu requires 30 mins and 10+ dudes sitting around afk on a gate
[17:06] <gobbins> so at some point you can roll over, blap a tcu and instantly pocket 3-4 bil in loot
[17:06] <garsttyrell> running nodes in frigs
[17:06] <gobbins> ok ok I get it you want fozzie sov changed, we all do
[17:06] <garsttyrell> youre talking about the apples proposal again
[17:06] <gobbins> but I am trying to discuss how nulsec can be made valuable to fight over
[17:07] <gobbins> yah dem apples
[17:07] <garsttyrell> Im not sure I buy your premise that it isnt, 99.8% of claimable systems in this game are currently claimed at any given time
[17:07] <garsttyrell> ever after aegis sov
[17:07] <gobbins> how much is being fought over tho? someone throwing up an empty tcu doesnt mean anything
[17:08] <gobbins> lets go back to a more basic question: shouldn't owning space be profitable?
[17:08] <garsttyrell> I dont know if more isk injection into the game is the way to make people want to fight over sov. I think people are going to miss pos fights when they get removed because they are high stakes winner takes all single grid fights with infinite scaling and escalation
[17:09] <garsttyrell> but grr supercap fleets and slowcats so here we are
[17:09] <gobbins> yeh pos need to stay
[17:09] <gobbins> but dont you think owning space should be profitable beyond moons? which dont depend on sov anyways?
[17:10] <gobbins> sure people will have more resources but will also spend more resources fighting over that space
[17:10] <garsttyrell> should owning more space be profitable? I dont know if all space should be equally as valuable. again scarcity creates competition, and competition creates drama
[17:10] <gobbins> not equally
[17:10] <gobbins> but all space should be valuable
[17:10] <gobbins> some more than other
[17:10] <gobbins> right now no space is valuable, only moons are
[17:10] <gobbins> how retarded is that?
[17:11] <garsttyrell> thats because all these systems have been incrementally introduced to the game over time as independent systems
[17:11] <garsttyrell> as long as moons are a passive isk faucet, I dont know if adding in another is beneficial
[17:12] <garsttyrell> especially if it becomes a burden where you have to go do a KTA mining op to mine your dyspro in a pvp alliance
[17:12] <garsttyrell> which is where im scared this winter will be heading
[17:12] <gobbins> forget moons for a sec please - I agree with you on moons already
[17:13] <gobbins> sov itself, shouldnt it be valuable?
[17:14] <garsttyrell> I dont want to split hairs and argue just for arguing so please dont think I am. if you want sov to have an inherent value in game items like raw isk, I think the systems need to be tied more intimately together which would require another revamp
[17:14] <caprisunkraftfoods> moons aren't a faucet, they don't create isk, they create value
[17:14] <garsttyrell> sov can have an emotional or quality of life value through things like jump bridges and morale narratives
[17:14] <garsttyrell> "weve got to retake the motherland"
[17:14] <garsttyrell> and also the motherland just happens to have anomalies we like to rat in
[17:21] <jintaan> what if a discrete package of space added value to both the people living in it, and to the alliance that owned it - as long as it was being used?
[17:21] <ironwulf> Ron mentioned last night making r64 0.0 exclusive. That make 0.0 more valuable
[17:21] <jintaan> No it would make 0.0 moons for valuable
[17:21] <jintaan> You can have no sov and moons
[17:21] <jintaan> vOv
[17:22] <ironwulf> Then tie it to sov
[17:23] <jintaan> Also, that is a solution. What you're really saying there is that 0.0 needs valuable single points of conflict to work properly
[17:25] <ironwulf> I mean gobbins got a point. It needs that point that makes someone want it and worth defending
[17:25] <ironwulf> Other than a banner
[17:25] <jintaan> On
[17:25] <jintaan> *Ok
[17:26] <jintaan> But did it have this during the Dominion period to drive conflict, and if so what changed?
[17:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean, you have regions that are worth like 150B/month ez at current moon values
[17:28] <caprisunkraftfoods> Like that area around esoteria/paragon soul/etc is insanely valuable
[17:29] <caprisunkraftfoods> its just the middle of no where
[17:30] <jintaan> Ok
[17:30] <jintaan> So jump ranges are an issue
[17:30] <jintaan> That prevent conflict
[17:32] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean, jin I don't want to make a big thing of it because it feels like beating a dead horse
[17:33] <caprisunkraftfoods> but phoebe changes have just fucked up how conflict in EVE works at such a fundamental level
[17:34] <caprisunkraftfoods> like if that's on the table
[17:34] <caprisunkraftfoods> you know if it's something CCP is really willing to make some serious changes on, then that should be first port of call
[17:34] <caprisunkraftfoods> because it's so fundamental to how everything else in the game works
[17:35] <caprisunkraftfoods> like we shouldn't even be having serious discussion about those other things if that's on the table
[17:35] <caprisunkraftfoods> but like I'm assuming its not
[17:35] <caprisunkraftfoods> so just bear that in mind
[17:36] <jintaan> Look Jump Fatigue is never going away
[17:36] <jintaan> Jump ranges MAYBE
[17:36] <jintaan> Can be changed
[17:36] <jintaan> But that is a massive if
[17:36] <jintaan> Like, I would be over the moon if it happened
[17:36] <caprisunkraftfoods> yeah that's what I mean
[17:37] <caprisunkraftfoods> if its on the table then let's throw away everything else and discuss that first
[17:37] <caprisunkraftfoods> but if its not, I don't feel like its worth even mentioning
[17:38] <garsttyrell> I dont like changing jump ranges
[17:38] <jintaan> I don't think it is, sadly.
[17:39] <garsttyrell> what I do like is adding more highway connections between 0.0 regions like paragon soul
[17:39] <jintaan> But I will 100% discuss it
[17:39] <garsttyrell> and maybe hand-redoing some chokepoints like between aridia and neighboring regions and stain to lowsec
[17:39] <jintaan> As I feel it's important to regions like Stain
[17:39] <jintaan> Like I mean that jump range change killed Stain
[17:40] <ironwulf> But can easily be solved by more gates to these for away regions getting them more traffic
[17:40] <garsttyrell> the jump ranges are awesome, they really add a tactical element to fcing caps that was never there before. everything prior was "do I undock and jump" everything after lets you set up choke points
[17:40] <garsttyrell> I cockblocked a XIX cta against them by camping the lxq gate to px- in ER and they didnt take the fight (so we capped the station) because they couldnt get in the constellation
[17:40] <garsttyrell> without jumping into us by gate
[17:40] <garsttyrell> that was never possible before
[17:40] <garsttyrell> and it would be a shame to lose that cause QQ move ops
[17:40] <caprisunkraftfoods> jump ranges killed every npc null region besides geminate and pure blind p much
[17:40] <garsttyrell> if anything needs tweaking its jump fatigue accumlation rate
[17:41] <jintaan> Ok fair enough
[17:41] <garsttyrell> so how about upping the orange timer, and decreasing the blue timer values?
[17:41] <garsttyrell> because moveops werent an issue, it was an issue with people teleporting across eve to get in one a single fight
[17:41] <caprisunkraftfoods> garst do you even know the formula
[17:41] <caprisunkraftfoods> that makes no sense
[17:41] <garsttyrell> formulas can be changed
[17:41] <garsttyrell> the point im making is, and its just a random thought I had right now
[17:41] <garsttyrell> f it youre right that doesnt make perfect sense :stuck_out_tongue:
[17:42] <caprisunkraftfoods> :stuck_out_tongue:
[17:42] <garsttyrell> bottom line i I was leaning towards doing some kind of system that stops you from traveling rapidly in a short time without punishing you over periods of days
[17:42] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean I'll give a quickie real world combat example of how severe it is right now
[17:42] <caprisunkraftfoods> https://zkillboard.com/kill/55316491/
[17:42] <caprisunkraftfoods> this was in jump range of our staging system
[17:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> literally 5 jumps
[17:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> but ofc needed to cyno because of the nature of the fight
[17:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> jump in, 1 siege cycle, couple mins, jump out
[17:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> that's a pretty textbook example of how dreads were used pre-phoebe
[17:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> my dread docked up at home with 2hrs 50 mins of fatigue
[17:44] <caprisunkraftfoods> my blops docked up with ~30 mins
[17:44] <garsttyrell> perhaps a simple quality of life fix would be, if you jump right back to the system you cyno'd from, no additional fatigue
[17:44] <garsttyrell> so that if you then cynoed another new system
[17:44] <garsttyrell> it would hit 3hours
[17:44] <garsttyrell> home again 3hours, out again 12 hours
[17:45] <garsttyrell> that works for local stuff, but move ops still take the full fatigue hits. I would love to see the max fatigue cap out at 2days, 48 hours
[17:45] <garsttyrell> theres no reason to make someone wait a week
[17:45] <garsttyrell> a month was ridiculous
[17:45] <garsttyrell> that would also allow jump bridges to be used locally
[17:51] <ironwulf> You know we talk about all these things we would like to see to drive content. At the end of the day having multiple regions of Blues doesn't help, As I am part of this current issue. A way to reward or make beneficial for dudes to hold there own is what I like to see
[17:53] <garsttyrell> no sov mechanic will change the fact that its better to have friends than enemies from a rational perspective. BUT if you do create enough competition among alliances, there is less incentive to have friends instead of rivals and that creates more drama = more conflict
[17:54] <garsttyrell> which is where I think gobbins are generally leading to
[18:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean something like the CFC can never really be created from scratch now
[18:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> you couldn't take sov like that
[18:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> and the mechanics don't support
[18:02] <caprisunkraftfoods> support it*
[18:03] <caprisunkraftfoods> and phoebe makes it highly impractical to defend it all together
[18:09] <garsttyrell> only if there are attackers, and many groups wont or cant attack
[18:09] <caprisunkraftfoods> well that was the CFC problem in WWB
[18:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> the western groups had to go so far to defend vale
[18:10] <garsttyrell> that and the fact all of eve turned up to hammer them and goons didnt want to commit for their alies :stuck_out_tongue:
[18:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> and then to defend from venal
[18:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> etc
[18:10] <garsttyrell> that was a unique case
[18:10] <garsttyrell> and not the standard really
[18:15] <killahbee> yea I agree with garst I dont think WWB should be an example we work around because wars like these happen not too often
[18:16] <killahbee> needs to be playable in the alliance vs alliance level to
[18:16] <killahbee> too*
[18:16] <caprisunkraftfoods> i'm not suggesting it should
[18:16] <caprisunkraftfoods> quite the opposite
[18:16] <caprisunkraftfoods> I was saying you couldn't build a coalition like that from scratch under the current mechanics of eve
[18:16] <caprisunkraftfoods> an existing one can entrench itself, but not be formed
[18:17] <garsttyrell> im a big supporter of the idea of more frequent tweaks instead of waiting on big revamps to save the game
[18:18] <caprisunkraftfoods> same
[18:18] <garsttyrell> theres many changes that can be made with minimal development time right now for sov, citadels, pretty much anything
[18:18] <garsttyrell> and cumulatively they will all add to the health of the pvp game
[18:19] <garsttyrell> small things like ticking the "use alliance standings" box to default from its current off position when capturing a sov outpost to enable docking by the capturing alilance without moving a holding alt would take no time but its been rejected by CCP because its "dev time on outddated systems"
[18:19] <garsttyrell> outddated systems we all have to live with another year
[19:10] <ron_mexxico> @jintaan: I know this is late but just read it )) The population density isn't high enough right now because the game has been made artificially bigger with the movement changes
[19:36] <ron_mexxico> Also @ccp_snowedin I think the HAW gun fittings changes will benefit the sov game greatly. Very nice change.
[20:14] <carneros> There are a number of times in the game where folks need to sit around and wait. And some of these could be removed without affecting game balance, improving lives. Garst's "use alliance standings" tick box is one. And his other suggestion as well to end the entosis module cycle when completing a node. You still have to wait for your weapon timer before taking certain actions, but you can at least move on from your former node.
[20:16] <carneros> I'm less worried about "reasons to have wars" then some folks in here. I've observed a cycle of big war - war ends - rest FC/troops - get bored - start new war and I can't find any good reason why no new war will start again unless we change X in the game.
[20:17] <carneros> We can't do more frequent wars than we do without burning out leadership even more. It's an astonishing amount of work.
[20:17] <carneros> But I get that there needs to be reasons/heuristics for smaller scale interactions besides big wars.
[20:23] <carneros> Regarding staging in null sec, there are things you could do to make that more pleasant. For the first time, I'm trying out living in a citadel. Two things to fix/adjust that I can see after one day:
[20:23] <carneros> (1) please add the ability to insure ships
[20:23] <carneros> (2) please add the ability to search for categories of items.
[20:24] <carneros> Right now, if you search for a category such as "Dreadnoughts" or "Fighters", I get results back for each citadel I can dock at with nothing inside the listing. Hard to explain.
[20:24] <carneros> Just have the QA guys set up dozens of citadels first. Configure them. Then test the search functions. They'll see what I mean.
[20:25] <carneros> Maybe I can do a screenshot.
[20:25] <carneros> Also, welcome, Jay. There's a lot to read.
[20:26] <nour_samy> o7
[20:27] <nour_samy> As long as there at least 2 players in eve there will b conflict :stuck_out_tongue:
[20:27] <nour_samy> worrying about no more wars is kind of eh
[20:28] <nour_samy> There is a very serious amount of burn out in aegis sov
[20:28] <nour_samy> Especially for FC's
[20:29] <nour_samy> Line mebers just sit there which is fine you can watch a movie or two, but FC's are sitting there asking hackers every 2 minutes status, pulling hair and yelling to get people in entosis ships
[20:29] <nour_samy> and generally trying to co-ord as much as possible
[20:29] <nour_samy> Something most people seemed to miss, Aegis sov discourages FCs, the primary content creators of EVE
[20:30] <nour_samy> Except for the one random guy who actually loves doing it. (Thank God FCON has one lol)
[20:31] <carneros> Now I'm not getting the tons of blank answers in my searches. But it only searches stations, not citadels so far.
[20:35] <raknor> jump fatigue reduction for jumping out of your capital
[20:35] <raknor> same as blops or halers
[20:35] <raknor> dealers choice
[20:35] <raknor> that would make sov cool again
[20:44] <carneros> That's pretty cool.
[20:45] <garsttyrell> I mean thats ok and I see no harm in implementing it, but its less effective in regions that are much more spread out like Catch than places like Tribute
[20:45] <garsttyrell> I wouldnt mind seeing that in addition to some other fatigue tweaks but it isnt enough by itself
[20:47] <ron_mexxico> Need range buff. Currently 2 shit
[20:47] <garsttyrell> maybe a capital bonus also gives you a +100% range bonus, leave the rest the same
[20:47] <garsttyrell> so you can project power from your home system
[20:48] <garsttyrell> extra bonus reason to have a sov system
[20:48] <garsttyrell> it gains with the strategic index, so you get +20% range from your capital system for each level fo strat index
[20:48] <garsttyrell> so you cant just drop a tcu constantly to get range
[20:48] <garsttyrell> gotta let it sit for a month or two
[21:08] <raknor> that would be shit adding a range bonus
[21:08] <raknor> like how the fuck would you get back?
[21:08] <raknor> enjoy your tripple jump
[21:08] <nour_samy> Not necessarily caps
[21:08] <nour_samy> could be subs and a titan bridge
[21:09] <nour_samy> but if titan fails :rip:
[21:09] <raknor> no like if you gave your capital a range boost you would bridge out
[21:09] <raknor> then realise you have to gate it a fuck ton of jumps back
[21:09] <raknor> nt fun at alll
[21:13] <nour_samy> Well, that'd be up to the FC
[21:13] <nour_samy> But wouldn't you do it if you could frag caps or get 20 jumps closer to a titan kill ?
[21:13] <ron_mexxico> Range bonus is kinda silly IMO
[21:13] <garsttyrell> you have to go where you have to go regardless
[21:13] <ron_mexxico> Should be the same for everybody
[21:13] <garsttyrell> whether you bridge 10 and gate 10
[21:13] <garsttyrell> its still 20 back
[21:14] <ron_mexxico> % of ratting taxes should go to TCU and then it gets paid in bounty when it dies to the killing alliance. Also if it dies it resets all indexes B)
[21:14] <garsttyrell> I repeat what I said earlier, the jump ranges are fine to me (despite some regions getting short shafted), id like to see fatigue reductions in specific cases
[21:15] <carneros> Why would anyone drop a TCU?
[21:15] <ron_mexxico> Because you'll have to
[21:15] <ron_mexxico> Or you can't install anything
[21:17] <carneros> I'm wondering what problem this fixes. Too few systems unclaimed?
[22:01] <raknor> ccp dont want you going cross ther map
[22:02] <raknor> so 20 jumps closer sounds like fozzies worst nightmare come true
[22:04] <caprisunkraftfoods> thing is 20 gate isn't crossing the map
[22:04] <caprisunkraftfoods> infact in some situations its barely crossing a region
[22:05] <garsttyrell> there are other devs at ccp than fozzie, and wasnt he pl anyway
[22:05] <raknor> its a good chunk
[22:05] <raknor> '20 extra'
[22:05] <caprisunkraftfoods> rak I mean, j5a to y-2 is 18 jumps by gates
[22:06] <raknor> yeah and the bridge cuts that down to 5
[22:08] <raknor> like ccp dont want you spread across regions
[22:08] <raknor> or be able to have easy access to multiple regions and project force
[22:16] <asher_elias> so did you guys solve all the problems before I got here?
[22:16] <raknor> yes
[22:16] <asher_elias> figured as much
[22:21] <nour_samy> Damn, I can feel the gut punch Poor asher :disappointed:
[22:22] <asher_elias> pardon?
[22:22] <nour_samy> "
[22:22] <nour_samy> asher_elias [1:16 AM]
[22:22] <nour_samy> so did you guys solve all the problems before I got here?
[22:22] <nour_samy> raknor [1:16 AM]
[22:22] <nour_samy> yes
[22:22] <nour_samy> asher_elias [1:16 AM]
[22:22] <nour_samy> figured as much"
[22:22] <asher_elias> oh, sarcasm OP!
[22:22] <nour_samy> Just kidding :stuck_out_tongue: Excuse my humor, sleep deprived and kind of in a sour mood :stuck_out_tongue:
[22:23] <asher_elias> who is going to take the essence of what is discussed here and present it?
[22:24] <nour_samy> I can try
[22:24] <asher_elias> sorry, I mean who is presenting it to CCP
[22:24] <nour_samy> Ah
[22:24] <nour_samy> That would be jintaan
[22:24] <asher_elias> but if you have a summary of what has been discussed that would be cool
[22:24] <nour_samy> And this channel is logged I believe straight to CCP servers
[22:28] <nour_samy> Yep, in summary we went over core issues with fozzie sov, primarily it taking so long and attempting to force FW style small gang despite it being not anywhere close to the purpose of nullsec. Some ideas were discussed but over all objective is to discuss core issues and boil them down so CSM has a solid idea of what to discuss/argue with CCP.
[22:28] <nour_samy> Some discussion about jump range/fatigue and possibly reblanacing both or either in different ways (Mainly garst suggested a revamped fatigue formula where you get a longer yellow lock out timer and a shorter fatigue counter and multiplier, limited to 48 hours)
[22:28] <nour_samy> Some discussion about incentivisng conflict and making nullsec worth owning, for example TCU generates X amount of isk/month and when killed drops 30% of the accumlated wealth over it's life time or something like that.
[22:28] <nour_samy> And a lot of discussion about why Fozziesov burns out people and discourages fleet fights and fleet participation
[22:28] <nour_samy> Lot of interesting logs if you're bored
[22:30] <nour_samy> I do apologize if my summary doesn't give enough light or anything to any one topic :slightly_smiling_face:
[22:31] <asher_elias> I don't care about fatigue too much, a little less would be good but it's not my main issue. Fozzie sov is what keeps me from investing my time. I used to have a "special ops" group where we would try out new and interesting strategies for big fights, but I don't even use it anymore because even if someone contests fozzie sov the chance of a fight happening are so low that I feel bad asking my guys to do all the prep works. In the old single objective based system you had a much higher chance of getting a fight because there wasn't an alternate strategy of "ruin your opponents day while never offering a fight.
[22:31] <asher_elias> I did like gobbins "TCU apple" idea or whatever he called it, that was a good one in general
[22:32] <asher_elias> Overall my opinion towards fozziesov is that I have to put much more effort into running a fucking spreadsheet to track nodes and wrangle people into the right spot so I spend less time prepping for a fight. I think that's bad for the game.
[22:35] <asher_elias> I also have a simple proposal to fix it within the framework of what we have now. Have ADMs affect your vuln window. In your vuln window structures have EHP based on how high your ADM is, so for very high ADMs systems will require a good size fleet to do in a reasonable amount of time. In low ADM systems the structure will be able to be reffed by a handful of guys in cruisers in 15 minutes. This gets rid of the problems we have now where you are always chasing ghosts. It lets everyone in your fleet have a role in sov (including logi), it rewards you for living in your space and it forces the kind of fights that nullsec people enjoy.
[22:36] <asher_elias> and it would get rid of all the nodes that everyone hates and move combat onto the structure grid.
[22:36] <nour_samy> Yep, pretty much a similar setup to citadels basically
[22:37] <asher_elias> well citadels aren't affected by ADM that I'm aware of, but yeah. I'm not proposing a damage cap but I'm not 100% opposed to it. It just needs to be high enough that capitals are STRONGLY encouraged so we can start the escalation chain that happens in good fights
[22:51] <ron_mexxico> Also I think that Aeons would be used more if they got a tweak to their CPU. It's pretty low at the moment.
[22:53] <nour_samy> Maybe if they actually finished building it, the cpu would work properly.
[22:53] <nour_samy> ~had to~
[22:55] <asher_elias> @ron_mexxico: I definitely think you've boiled the most important issue down
[22:56] <asher_elias> aeon's should be able to fit HAWs
[22:56] <ron_mexxico> Yea I brought up 'tar CPU yesterday and today it got fixed. So obviously I'm on the right track
[22:56] <asher_elias> without a fitting mod
[23:04] <ron_mexxico> :thinking_face:
[23:04] <ron_mexxico> This chat is low on elite pvpers such as @killahbee and myself
[23:05] <nour_samy> I can at least safely say I'm one of the top carebears in here
[23:05] <nour_samy> I'm told I'm a semi competent FC as well
[23:17] <asher_elias> @ron_mexxico: I love your solo no links/no drugs videos
[23:33] <ron_mexxico> thx
[23:33] <ron_mexxico> I got another one in the works
[23:34] <ron_mexxico> Gonna take reddit by storm
[23:54] <caprisunkraftfoods> @asher_elias: how do you feel about the point me and rak were making earlier that you get less fights because forming fleets than can fight isn't actually the best way to win a timer