[00:17] <rowells> Its safe to assume that having all the subs on you at the same time is a bad idea right?
[00:37] <eustise> i think the conceptual change of displaying attributes is sorely needed, it's the age old classic of a Iron Sword doing 10 damage and then seeing an Iron Sword doing 12 damage but also having 20% extra damage, you know the 20% is baked into the displayed stat and just shows a change from the reference
[00:42] <eustise> fitting reductions for repairers we talked about and it's needed in the current iteration to make sure fitting doesn't go out of hand, and adding weapon fitting reductions will only 'force' fits more into the roles they are supposed to have. This will just cut a bit into the more interesting fits that may be developed but as long as it's a gentle nudge it should be fine.
[00:46] <eustise> As for the subsystem cargohold, it doesn't solve the underlying matter of also having to store modules for gear, and that can take a fair bit, especially if we're also talking a full rack of guns. We've talked cargoholds here and i think an 100m3 or 150m3 buff across the board wouldn't be ridiculous, with applications both in PvP and various forms of PvE.
[02:17] <noxisia> I mean for god's sake bring them up to T3D's storage
[15:01] <rowells> I've been thinking about that bonuses weapons thing on the logi sub and I'm kinda liking the idea a bit more and more
[15:05] <icarus_narcissus> I, personally, am against bonusing the logi/burst sub. If people want there to be turret/missile hardpoints, sure, but bonusing them? I feel that still encroaches on the command ship.
[15:10] <titus.tallang> i'd think that "logi + bursts" as opposed to "guns + bursts" gives them desirable uniqueness that we'd weaken by letting them fit guns
[15:11] <titus.tallang> but then again, i'm not necessarily representative of the full target audience
[15:19] <rowells> @icarus_narcissus bounding them would just be a way to keep the slot count lower without and not need to open the door for fitting abuses
[15:19] <rowells> Kind of like the proposed fitting bonus for medium reps
[15:21] <rowells> They don't need to compete with the other dps subs
[15:22] <rowells> So like 3 turrets with a 20% bonus for effectively 6 turrets but not need to add extra pg/CPU to make it actually useable
[15:22] <rowells> And then you have 2-3 slots left for things
[15:23] <sturm_gewehr> T3s won't "encroach" on CS with links and weapons post changes any more than they do currently, which is very little. Removing this option doesn't create "uniqueness" as much as destroy healthy and current playstyles.
[15:23] <sturm_gewehr> I am as excited as anyone as logi and links being on the same sub but I fail to see why you can't also keep guns and links as a T3 possibility.
[15:23] <icarus_narcissus> 6 Effective hardpoints isn't bad... Although I would get concerned if we started going over 6
[15:24] <rowells> Yeah, low enough that using another offensive sub is optimal, but RR and micro/small gang link ships can contribute aside from support
[15:25] <sturm_gewehr> Which is a point I made during my proposal, modest power level, not competitive with other offensive subs.
[15:27] <eustise> i don't care much for the concept since it seems like we're trying to shoehorn it in, but if it's something relatively weak, 4-5 unbonused turrets, just the highslot turret mounts, i don't see the harm
[15:28] <rowells> I'll say 5-6 effective turrets only because we can adjust numbers and bonuses to keep fitting room where it needs to be
[15:29] <sturm_gewehr> The other option would be changing subs around again to make links a defensive sub and changing something like covops sub offensive, not sure people want to see that though.
[15:29] <rowells> Otherwise we could have an issue where the turrets take up way too much fitting for good use, or add too much for larger applications (MEd-large fleets)
[15:29] <rowells> Yeah I'm a little too happy to see covops move to defensive to agree with that
[15:30] <icarus_narcissus> I also like the covops defensive sub
[15:31] <rowells> The real kicker will be what the final weapon to highslot ratio will be
[15:32] <sturm_gewehr> I really fail to see how difficult it is, from a balance perspective, to make bonused weapons a reality on the support sub.
[15:32] <sturm_gewehr> Use role bonuses and hardpoint restrictions in conjunction with per level bonuses to give them some punch without competing with the current offensive subs.
[15:33] <titus.tallang> i believe it's more of a thematic conflict
[15:34] <rowells> I'd say 3 turrets with bonuses up to 6-7 effective and 5 highslots total
[15:34] <sturm_gewehr> Why is that important to balance? Especially considering it is a direct takeaway to a currently healthy playstyle?
[15:34] <sturm_gewehr> I was going to suggest 3 turrets with 6 highs.
[15:35] <rowells> I could work with that. Just keep an eye on it
[15:35] <sturm_gewehr> Current support is 6 highs, this allows 3 links 3 weapons.
[15:35] <titus.tallang> 6 unbonused turrets?
[15:35] <titus.tallang> so 3 hardpoints with 100% role bonus
[15:35] <titus.tallang> ?
[15:35] <rowells> 6 effective turrets yes
[15:36] <rowells> Iirc the regular offensive subs settle around 8-9 on the low end? Excluding the drone ones
[15:36] <sturm_gewehr> Sure, but it doesn't need to be that strong either, and I think a lot of people would want some application bonuses over just raw damage. But there is a lot of leeway here.
[15:37] <rowells> Also, would it be turret bonuses or drone bonuses on the proteus?
[15:38] <ccp_fozzie> Just chiming in on this specific debate to say that I don't have strong opinions either way off the top of my head, but I'm following along and am interested in what you guys all think
[15:39] <rowells> We got one more or is he the last one?
[15:39] <icarus_narcissus> @rowells Turret. Drones get out of hand really fast.
[15:39] <icarus_narcissus> Hello Xerunia
[15:39] <ccp_fozzie> Progodlegend should be arriving soon, he'll be the last
[15:40] <ccp_fozzie> he was away for most of the week
[15:41] <icarus_narcissus> Continuing the prior thread.... Drone bonuses on the proteus could run amok as it has 50mbit and therefore can yield a full flight of mediums or -- it someone's feeling cheeky -- a gecko
[15:43] <noxisia> I'd agree with Sturm on this one... you don't want to give them the full damage they'd have if they'd picked the damage sub systems... I think a moderate decrease in dps for RR utility is a good trade off.
[15:43] <noxisia> i/
[15:43] <noxisia> er hi rather
[15:44] <sturm_gewehr> I like sticking to turret or missile bonuses only with the 3 weapon slot 6 highs total with probably no more than 75% power level of other offensive subs,50-60% is probably a healthier amount but I haven't looked into the numbers and this is all pre stats.
[15:45] <titus.tallang> it's gotta be an either/or
[15:45] <titus.tallang> (obviously)
[15:45] <icarus_narcissus> 3 turrets (or launchers in the Tengu's case) with a 10% RoF per level would give them 6 effective turrets minus the losses from reload times
[15:45] <icarus_narcissus> legion would have a slight advantage there
[15:45] <titus.tallang> i'm still not sure if i like the support sub having a per-level bonus to damage
[15:46] <titus.tallang> role bonus is weird enough
[15:46] <sturm_gewehr> 3 utility highs allows for 3x links 3x weapons, or 3x weapons 1-2 reps, 1-2 links, etc.
[15:46] <icarus_narcissus> if it's a role bonus, it should be aiming for less than 6 effective turrets
[15:47] <icarus_narcissus> 40% RoF on 3 hardpoints gives 5 hardpoints
[15:48] <icarus_narcissus> which I think would be more reasonable as a role bonus
[15:49] <sturm_gewehr> Or rr fits with 3x weapon and 3x reps. My fear with this is that with the rep range bonus this could be potentially too strong in small groups, largely depends on stats. I would like to note that this is something to keep an eye on. Currently rr fits are limited by rep range.
[15:50] <sturm_gewehr> I think it might be worth considering not giving any sort of range bonuses to the support sub for weapons and just do damage bonuses and maybe application (tracking, explosion radius).
[15:50] <icarus_narcissus> I was thinking pure DPS bonus
[15:50] <icarus_narcissus> range -- definitely not
[15:51] <titus.tallang> yeah the rr+damage application is also of concern to me
[15:51] <icarus_narcissus> hence why I suggested RoF
[15:51] <sturm_gewehr> Range could get too spooky, application maybe.
[15:51] <titus.tallang> RoF is a really weird bonus though @icarus_narcissus
[15:51] <titus.tallang> especially with hybrids or lasers it feels like a penalty, _especially_ as logi
[15:51] <titus.tallang> just make it damage
[15:52] <sturm_gewehr> Especially if it is just a role bonus.
[15:52] <titus.tallang> 75% damage role bonus or something
[15:52] <sturm_gewehr> A role bonus of damage with a per level RoF is fine, if we want a per level.
[15:52] <titus.tallang> since we're balancing rep amount around a full rack of highs it's likely fine
[15:52] <icarus_narcissus> If it's a role bonus: 75% damage
[15:52] <icarus_narcissus> If it's a per level bonus: 20% per level
[15:52] <sturm_gewehr> You can also do a role bonus with a per level.
[15:53] <icarus_narcissus> Minimizing the number of lines that talk about damage on these subs makes sense to me. It is intended to be a support sub
[15:53] <sturm_gewehr> But this is too early to decide for certain, we really need stats for this.
[15:54] <sturm_gewehr> Works for me @icarus_narcissus
[15:58] <icarus_narcissus> If the range issue is too large, I'd imagine CCP could make the bonus Pulse/HAM/Blaster/Autocannon rather than just medium racial weapon, although this would hurt the Proteus and Loki a bit
[18:43] <rowells> Is there a semi-easy way to modify stats in pyfa that don't otherwise exist on something?
[18:43] <rowells> Like trying to put a range bonus on a logistics sub
[19:36] <lanyaie> yeah
[19:37] <lanyaie> Program Files (x86)\pyfa
[19:37] <lanyaie> there's a file there called
[19:37] <lanyaie> eve.db
[19:37] <lanyaie> open it with something like ```http://sqlitebrowser.org/
[19:37] <lanyaie> ```
[19:38] <lanyaie> actually, I don't know for sure if that's where the bonuses are stored.
[19:49] <sullen> holy shit
[19:49] <sullen> so much to catch up on today
[19:49] <sullen> but looks like just going back and forth on how much damage people should do with the RR mod
[19:50] <sullen> @ccp_fozzie have you updated the google sheet at all ?
[19:51] <eustise> it's friday, give the man an evening off from squabbling with nerds online about pixel spaceships :stuck_out_tongue:
[19:55] <sullen> lol
[19:55] <lanyaie> @rowells if you're familiar with db, just squabble around with it..everything is there.
[19:55] <sullen> what was the final view on the turrest for the RR/burst config?
[19:55] <lanyaie> depending on how hard it is, if stats are released I'll modify the db myself and upload it.
[19:55] <eustise> i don't think there was one
[19:55] <sullen> tbh this room is a enjoyable get away from the rorqual QQ'ing everywhere else in the game :stuck_out_tongue:
[19:57] <lanyaie> It's an enjoyable sight.
[19:58] <sullen> anyone, one of the things i was wondering is we could modify the way things are grouped possibly to make it so there is a choice
[19:58] <sullen> like you get RR + missiles
[19:58] <sullen> OR
[19:58] <sullen> RR+burst
[19:59] <eustise> we're stuck in 3/3/3/3 due to art
[19:59] <sullen> true
[19:59] <sullen> whats the latest excel link?
[19:59] <sullen> i can't find it since i closed it
[19:59] <sullen> no idea how that didn't get pinned
[19:59] <sullen> i know we're stuck at 4 groups of 3
[19:59] <sullen> but maybe could look at how those are grouped
[20:00] <exooki> well, imn ot sure you could effectively merge logi, or boosts into the primary weapon systems
[20:00] <exooki> i dont see the attraction of adding bonused weapons to the support subsystem, but i also dont see an issue with it
[20:01] <exooki> as long as its DPS is far inferior to the other two, idc if they choose to use some highs for dmg
[20:01] <exooki> but anyone that wants real damage should need to pick the other two
[20:03] <sullen> @sullen pinned a message to this channel.
[20:03] <sullen> [June 2nd, 2017 2:00 PM] exooki: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1OrEz3NbQ7Vl6BURvnmyEqgtaTzgGXwk0Ask-Y5FFtBs/edit#gid=0
[20:03] <sullen> and now pinned! now i don't have to look for that damn thing again lol
[20:03] <sullen> thanks @exooki
[20:04] <sullen> the attraction exooki is for what i call microgangs/ solo multiboxers
[20:04] <sullen> when you have <5 actually characters present
[20:06] <exooki> i can see that
[20:07] <exooki> the "new" t3Cs seem like theyd be even more attractive for small fleets,with their ability to multitask.
[20:07] <exooki> i just want to make sure we avoid letting its dmg be too high, such that people just bring these and refit them on the fly as they need more reps/boosts
[20:07] <exooki> if they want real damage, they should be swapping subs out for that
[20:13] <sullen> i think we're all in agreement of that
[20:14] <sullen> even giving them the equivalent of 6 turrents unbonused doesn't seem like much
[20:14] <sullen> the other configs give about 6 turrets worth PLUS bonuses
[20:15] <sullen> on the topic of drones, i don't see a viable way you could do this with drones though
[20:16] <sullen> because nomatter what way you do it your'e either going to give the prot too much drone bay, or too powerful drones coupled with reps
[20:43] <mawderator> Now that I'm not on mobile
[20:43] <mawderator> @mawderator mentioned a file: Slot_layout_dump__Legion.txt https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/files/titus.tallang/F5KTZP0CT/slot_layout_dump__legion.txt .
[20:44] <mawderator> _Logi / Grid / Passive / Agility : 6H, 3M, 8L_
[20:44] <mawderator> that has me worried
[21:16] <mawderator> Here are the current logistics legion fits used by PM and snuff respectively
[21:17] <mawderator> @mawderator uploaded a file: Untitled https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/files/mawderator/F5NTAUVC6/-.txt
[21:17] <exooki> worried about too much tank?
[21:17] <mawderator> @mawderator uploaded a file: Untitled https://ccpfocusgroups.slack.com/files/mawderator/F5N1GDJRZ/-.txt
[21:18] <mawderator> So if you go 8 slot tank with an afternburner and 2 faction batteries
[21:18] <mawderator> these effectively have 2 more lowslots than the current fits used
[21:19] <mawderator> right now that I actually have free time on hand
[21:20] <mawderator> I'm looking through the current slot layouts proposed thanks to titus.tallang
[21:21] <mawderator> and trying to find if there's anything egregiously out of balance
[21:22] <mawderator> and yeah this with the added falloff seems pretty busted
[21:24] <exooki> even with reduced base armor, and reducted resists, you think the extra lows will be able to make up for it?
[21:24] <sturm_gewehr> And increased sig, lower speed and lower agility.
[21:26] <sturm_gewehr> But yes, 2 lows does help counter those nerfs @exooki
[21:26] <sturm_gewehr> And probably make the overall power level of the ship higher post changes.
[21:28] <exooki> would 6 4 7 feel any better? or do we just think it has too many slots overall?
[21:28] <exooki> 3 mids isnt much assuming youd want a prop, an eccm and cap battery
[21:28] <exooki> im guessing ecm isnt much of a concern in your fights givent he scale
[21:30] <sturm_gewehr> The rabisu, for example, only has 6 lowslots and 3 mids. The legion fit here has 3 mids and 8 lows.
[21:32] <exooki> in WH space, if the only penalty is the speed/sig, then it will still tank way too much
[21:32] <exooki> VS BSs ( machs?) blapping a slower, larger one of these should be easier no?
[21:34] <sturm_gewehr> Keep in mind that the AB sub may get a role bonus to reduce pg for ABs, which could make 100mn a thing whereas currently 100mn is bad due to range restriction on current T3s and the poor maneuverability and higher speeds of 100mn vs 10mn.
[21:35] <mawderator> 100mn (probably) isn't a concern
[21:35] <mawderator> it chews into your fitting far too hard
[21:35] <mawderator> unless you're going to use one of your new found lows for a faction RCU or something to that effect
[21:35] <sturm_gewehr> In small gang where you wouldn't role with 1-2 plates it could be.
[21:35] <exooki> id HOPE that 1600 + 100 mn + all the reps isnt going to fit
[21:36] <exooki> not without sacrificing some slots for PG
[21:36] <sturm_gewehr> 100mn, MAR and reps could be a real thing though.
[21:37] <mawderator> the other part that's busted is the optimal and falloff bonus
[21:37] <sturm_gewehr> But it's the brick tanked guardian replacement fits for larger fights which could be the biggest issue.
[21:37] <mawderator> take a c-type medium RR
[21:38] <mawderator> 12km optimal + 3.4km falloff
[21:38] <mawderator> _+50% R-Armor Optimal, +1300% R-Armor Falloff_ is the proposed bonus
[21:39] <sturm_gewehr> Guardian is 2 rigs, 2 mids and only 5 lows vs 3 rigs, 3 mids and 8 lows on the new legion.
[21:39] <mawderator> we now have an 18km optimal + 44 km falloff
[21:39] <mawderator> on that legion's RR
[21:39] <exooki> the guardian has way smaller sig, and much better resists though
[21:39] <exooki> and a PG reduction for reps
[21:41] <exooki> thats full reps out to 18, and 50% reps 18- 62 right?
[21:41] <mawderator> 50% at 62km
[21:42] <mawderator> it's falloff that works the same as weapons platforms
[21:42] <mawderator> also wrt resists
[21:42] <mawderator> https://puu.sh/w91pS/668151e049.png
[21:42] <exooki> oof, yeah thats gonna be too much i think
[21:43] <exooki> now, thats ind ef right?
[21:43] <exooki> i assumed it was gonna be t3D resists OUT of def mode
[21:43] <mawderator> my bad
[21:44] <exooki> unless we already said otherwise?
[21:44] <mawderator> it was in defensive
[21:44] <mawderator> I actually don't know
[21:44] <exooki> in defensieve would be wa too much
[21:44] <mawderator> Sorry not trying to be disingenuous
[21:44] <exooki> more than they have now i think
[21:45] <mawderator> https://puu.sh/w91Dz/fa1138ef0a.png
[21:45] <mawderator> that's prop/sharpshooter mode
[21:46] <exooki> much more manageable
[21:46] <exooki> but, with 8Ls probably still going to be too strong id bet
[21:47] <icarus_narcissus> It's gonna depend a lot on the actual PG and CPU numbers
[21:47] <sturm_gewehr> And it still gets an extra rig and mid over the guardian.
[21:50] <exooki> would we consider removing a rig slot, or adding it to some of the subs?
[21:50] <exooki> so the 8L/ 8M ships wont have a 3rd rig? may help in limiting the absurdness 8 tank slots can get
[21:55] <sturm_gewehr> I don't like removing rigs for the class or individual subsystems, especially for a class that has a role bonus to refitting rigs.
[21:55] <sturm_gewehr> So that they aren't destroyed.
[21:57] <exooki> fair, but im unsure how aalnced we can make 8 tank slots + 3 rigs be regardless of the rest of the fit
[21:58] <mawderator> depends on whether or not they can actually do anything else besides have lots of tank
[21:59] <mawderator> I've just now gotten the free time to look for use cases like this RR legion
[21:59] <sturm_gewehr> The support subs currently get a free low/mid compared to other subs.
[21:59] <sturm_gewehr> No other offensive sub gets a low or mid.
[21:59] <sturm_gewehr> One possibility is just removing that or moving it to a high slot.
[22:04] <mawderator> also this webbing loki:
[22:04] <mawderator> _Logi / Web / Passive / AB : 6H, 8M, 3L_
[22:05] <mawderator> I don't actually care about the Logi bonuses in particular, but I want it because it's the only offensive loki sub that gives me an extra mid
[22:24] <sturm_gewehr> @sturm_gewehr pinned a message to this channel.
[22:24] <sturm_gewehr> [June 1st, 2017 1:26 PM] ccp_fozzie: We're currently leaning towards a conceptual change of moving some of the attributes back to the hull and only putting what's needed on the subs, which should allow us to put a summary of + stats each sub includes in its description
[22:52] <rowells> Man 8 slots is scarier than I thought
[22:54] <rowells> Oh hey it worked
[22:55] <rowells> Don't know if I was supposed to but oh well
[22:55] <rowells> @progodlegend I snuck yu in
[22:55] <progodlegend> yay
[22:59] <rowells> I wonder how many pg reductions and module fitting bonuses we'll have to add before we've neutered it enough
[23:11] <titus.tallang> idk i kinda wanna see actual stats before i start freaking out about specific sub combinations