[16:38] <sullen> @exooki what indy changes are you looking for specifically?
[16:39] <exooki> well they said theyre adding new items and tweaking the production process
[16:39] <exooki> but weve got no details on what that is or looks like still
[16:39] <exooki> the t3 indy market currently leaves a lot to be desired
[16:40] <exooki> if making them more expensive is part of the plan ( which I understood it to be), than how CCP wants to do that is important
[16:41] <exooki> because adding a new item to the build cost is at best a short term solution
[16:41] <exooki> similar to t3ds, the stuff to build them is peanuts only new players bother hacking WH data/relic sites
[16:42] <sullen> they're also not used as much lately
[16:42] <sullen> and their mats are getting the shit farmed out of them in highclass wh's
[16:42] <exooki> actually, very few people in high class WH space bothers salvaging
[16:43] <sullen> we do it all the time when we run
[16:43] <sullen> i don't think we ever run without doing it
[16:43] <sullen> but maybe that's just us
[16:43] <exooki> maybe its just us that dont bother, ill aska round
[16:43] <sullen> i can see how some if you're blitzing and short on characters woudl just drop tractor and collect blue loot
[16:44] <exooki> my perception was that most people dont bother with it, because blue loots almost the entire value
[16:44] <sullen> but if we're running the sites it's a dedicated thing to make money so we want to maximize profits
[16:44] <sullen> we don't run 24/7 like some
[16:45] <exooki> do you guys hack the data/relic cans?
[16:49] <exooki> got mixed results, some groups say they dont bother with salvage, others say they do, but only becuase its trivially easy, not becuase its worth much
[16:50] <exooki> unanimous consensus is thatt he data.relic are worthless though
[16:52] <exooki> couple areas that I see as issues that id love to see some attention, all heavily related to T3s, so if in scope very relevant IMO
[16:58] <icarus_narcissus> My group always salvages wrecks from combat, we had a few people that ran relic/data but they stopped because the ISK isn't good at all and the added fact that they usually can't even fit one relic site in their cargoholds
[17:00] <icarus_narcissus> My group huffs low end gas and won't do cans in data/relic sites -- that says something
[17:03] <exooki> 1. WH data/relic cans are too forgiving, in other parts of space there is a bar of expertise required, where you get 2 tries or lose the loot. WH data/relic sites do not, and allow you to try infinitely. Thew few times i have heard of my guys doing them, many found it easier to just spam click and hope to get lucky than actually try, since retrying is free
[17:03] <exooki> Possible solution: Make the can explode after 1, or two failures. Without fiddling with anything else, this would see a decrease in relic/data supply, and also make the hacking game feel more rewarding, allowing proficient analyzers to feel like their skill is worthwhile. Over time, values of the contents should rise once the oversupply is depleted, meaning these cans may be worth doing.
[17:03] <exooki> 2. Reverse engineering RNG based outcome. When T3s were introduced you did a RE job on a relic, and received a random subsystem BPC of that type. Once CCP realized that some of the subsystems were worthless, they bandaided in a fix allowing you to choose which one you got. This severely reduced demand, leading to lower values across all of the data/relic contents.
[17:03] <exooki> Possible solution: Reintroduce the RNG, dont let me pick which offensice subsystem I get. This will help keep demand up. Since in theory we are ensuring all the subsystems will be used again, theres no reason to leave the band aid in place.
[17:03] <exooki> 3. Quantity of contents: WHen CCP added the loot spew mechanic, they doubled the quantity in each can, to account for loot loss. Naturally capsuleers figured out how to max this, and no one lost any loot anyways. CCP then removed the spew, but kept the quantity. SO we have a 100% increase in supply here.
[17:03] <exooki> Solution: Reduce quantity of loot in each container to help curb oversupply
[17:03] <exooki> 4. Hull relics are needlessly large ( 100 m3), very few exploring ships can afford to even do 2 sites if they get lucky with hulls.
[17:03] <exooki> Solution: Reduce hull section m3
[17:03] <exooki> 5. Successful T3 BPCs have way too many runs. A successfull high end relic reverse engineering job yields 20 runs. A single data/relic site's contents can be used to build two full squadrons of t3Cs, drastically reducing demand. The difference between a intact, malfunctioning, and wrecked relic is massive to the point that no one uses the lower ones unless the intacts are sold out. When all the other costs of my job are identical, i am always going to choose the relic whose success is 20 runs, over the 10 or 3.
[17:03] <exooki> Solution: Reduce runs on successful RE jobs
[17:05] <exooki> I recognize that all of these equate to making t3s more expensive in long run, as well as benefiting anyone with a stockpile of T3 mats ( of which I readily admit I am one of), but the current t3 market is rather bland, and without changes, even a significant increase in player t3 usage wont do much, as the oversupply has been allowed to persist for so long.
[17:08] <icarus_narcissus> I feel that your above suggestions do a lot to fix the relic sites, but I think the data sites would remain lackluster. I'd suggest introducing something new to the data cans that can be utilized some other way (maybe something to do with SoE?), but that goes beyond the T3C scope.
[17:13] <exooki> well most of them would affect them equally
[17:13] <exooki> but the equation is very out of whack right now
[20:51] <noxisia> WH Data / Relic sites are about the most worthless thing in the game. I've occasionally hacked a can if it spawns the next wave and we're out of other sites.
[20:55] <noxisia> I'd agree with icarus
[20:55] <noxisia> There's no reason to run a data site even if you reduce the supply. There's already so much supply that's unused it'd take years to see the effect
[20:57] <icarus_narcissus> So, I don't do much exploration in K-Space, but if my impression of it is correct, relic sites are kind of like the "these are usually worth doing" while the data sites are "these are usually crap, but you could strike it rich with a good blueprint" or something right? (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Wormhole sites don't have anything like that -- a "jackpot" for lack of a better word.
[20:58] <noxisia> Yes; that's the consensus I get from newer players. I see a lot of explorers skip data sites.
[21:04] <icarus_narcissus> As much as I hate to say it, I think whatever will "save" J-Space exploration will come from a new feature, not from a re-balance of T3Cs. T3Cs could lay the groundwork for such a change with alterations to reverse engineering and/or materials, but at the end of the day, I expect it will be what comes next that really does the job.
[21:10] <exooki> your right, but im not sure " it would take years to take effect" is a reason to not try/ get started
[21:11] <icarus_narcissus> Oh most definitely
[21:12] <exooki> if we reduce supply( by making cans drop less, and explode, and up prod demand ( through lower success, and lower runs) AND see increased t3C usage overall that oversupply will burn out
[21:13] <icarus_narcissus> The balance pass should make steps to breathe some life into J-Space data and relics, but at the same time, we should not think from the onset that we stand a chance of actually "fixing" them at this stage.
[21:15] <icarus_narcissus> @exooki Along those lines, maybe just setting the Wrecked/Malfunctioning/Intact to only impact invention chance (say... 28/33/38 or something) but having them all give the same number of runs (5-10) could help?
[21:28] <sullen> @exooki keep in mind that the reduction in subsystems as planed by this change
[21:28] <sullen> will almost positively increase the cost of subsystesm
[21:28] <sullen> since the materials used to build the ones not continuing will need to be passed to the other subsystems
[21:29] <exooki> right, but thats not necessarily an overall net change
[21:30] <sullen> no
[21:30] <sullen> it's not
[21:30] <sullen> i'm just saying subsystesm will undoubtedly go up
[21:30] <sullen> also i don't thin the RNG will be necissary
[21:31] <sullen> as HOPEFULLY with this change we will make all subsystems worthwhile
[21:31] <sullen> a better change i think is to standardize the build costs for each group
[21:31] <sullen> so for example defensive subsystems always require the same materials regardless of which one is being built
[21:31] <sullen> that way no matter what the meta shifts it won't impact the materials needed
[21:39] <exooki> thats how it is now
[21:39] <exooki> all the subs are the same
[21:40] <exooki> i..think, second guessing now
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> @exooki Yes, it actually goes one step further than that
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> Any defensive sub uses the same mats regardless of race.
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> Any offensive sub uses the same mats regardless of race.
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> Any electronic sub uses the same mats regardless of race.
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> Any engineering sub uses the same mats regardless of race.
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> Any propulsion sub uses the same mats regardless of race.
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> All four hulls use the same mats
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> Differentiation occurs at time of reverse engineering
[22:09] <icarus_narcissus> and that's minimal to say the least
[23:12] <sullen> yeah that's fine
[23:12] <sullen> that's what it needs to be
[23:13] <sullen> i like the consideration through of significantly reducing/ even removing t3 components from high class
[23:14] <sullen> leaving blue loot as the prime income and moving t3 salvage components to low class
[23:14] <sullen> highclass would barely notice the drop in income, it would then give a reason for lowcass to exist
[23:15] <sullen> highclass still contributes to the t3 costs though through gas/polymers