[00:26] <sturm_gewehr> I want to know what people think about fits like these. They aren't optimized or anything, some have goofy aspects (100mn loki). Keep in mind both the legion and the tengu are interdiction nullified and the legion is cap stable with the drifter drug.
[00:26] <sturm_gewehr> Now instead of bringing an etana, falcon and stork, you can just bring a tengu.
[00:28] <sturm_gewehr> And this is the original EFT with the first set of stats, not certain how up to date it is.
[01:49] <sturm_gewehr> Some people are concerned about lowsec HKs getting nerfed by moving warp speed to the nullification sub.
[01:50] <sturm_gewehr> Which forces you to drop slots in order to get warp speed.
[01:50] <sturm_gewehr> Also hurts ships like smartbomb proteus but I am not certain that works with these changes anyways.
[07:08] <white0rchid> @sturm_gewehr I'm guessing these are small gang support fits?
[10:30] <ccp_fozzie> @sturm_gewehr what would you think about another slight increase in proteus base speed, and then swapping the 3% speed on the proteus chassis optimization back into warp speed?
[10:30] <ccp_fozzie> so the proteus would have two warp speed options
[13:55] <sturm_gewehr> Depends on the numbers, but seems like a good possible solution.
[13:57] <sturm_gewehr> The proteus was horribly slow though, I don't want to be the one who promoted it not having any chance of attaining decent speeds outside of warp.
[14:04] <noxisia> You can still fit a smart bomb proteus but it's 2-3x the already high cost. The powergrid is brutal
[14:57] <sturm_gewehr> @ccp_fozzie what about the tengu in the same scenario?
[14:58] <sturm_gewehr> Again I really don't want to promote slowing down the tengu on grid either, but it also will suffer the same way the proteus does.
[14:58] <sturm_gewehr> Very tricky removing so many subs and keeping everyone happy and their playstyle intact.
[14:59] <ccp_fozzie> yeah we're never going to make everyone happy, but I'm also happy to take advantage of an opportunity to add more distinctiveness between the ships
[15:02] <sturm_gewehr> I like the idea of proteus and/or tengu both having 2 warp speed options, I also don't mind tengu being hit hard for small gang as much if legion and loki can take over.
[15:03] <sturm_gewehr> I do think considering the t3s cannot use mjds they need to be more of a mid ground between BCs and cruisers than BCs for their mobility.
[15:03] <sturm_gewehr> But that is already being addressed, I need to check the new numbers.
[15:04] <sturm_gewehr> How much base speed would you add to compensate the 3% speed bonus?
[15:13] <sturm_gewehr> Probably too late in the game but what about mjd role bonus to certain subs?
[15:13] <sturm_gewehr> In lieu of speed creeping more than you are comfortable?
[15:14] <sturm_gewehr> @ccp_fozzie also with the cpu issues on proteus, I am fine with leaving them as is for now since most issues came from trying to make optimal combat fits with friction extension sub with no fitting drawbacks.
[15:25] <caprisunkraftfoods> the proteus definitely needs more base speed for sure
[15:26] <sturm_gewehr> Plated prot was slower than plated CS.
[15:26] <sturm_gewehr> At least the tengu was marginally faster than the drake.
[15:28] <rowells> If the fit I ran yesterday was right, proteus lost just under 100m/s for its AHAC config
[15:28] <rowells> Which is ~150 less than the legion, so that will be problematic
[15:28] <sturm_gewehr> Is that with AB or MWD?
[15:28] <rowells> AB
[15:29] <sturm_gewehr> Yeah AB proteus speeds are currently a joke.
[15:29] <sturm_gewehr> MWD isn't much better.
[15:30] <sturm_gewehr> Not a fan of it matching BC speeds without some serious compensation.
[15:30] <rowells> On that note, it also seems that the AHAC web Loki is also down a tremendous amount of ehp as well. More than 130k lost
[15:30] <sturm_gewehr> A healthier place would be a speed between ishtar/deimos and BCs.
[15:31] <sturm_gewehr> What is the slot layout for that loki?
[15:31] <rowells> 5m/5l
[15:31] <rowells> Currently is 5m/6l
[15:32] <rowells> If I could get the second plate on there I think it might get up closer to a 70k loss but I was having difficulties getting a second 1600mm plate on
[15:32] <caprisunkraftfoods> armor web lokis needed an EHP reduction. they're maybe a tiny bit over nerfed, but they're a lot closer to where they should be
[15:33] <sturm_gewehr> Keep in mind they are losing slots, gaining sig and losing resists.
[15:33] <rowells> Yeah, I was expecting a nerf, just not a 250k to 100k drop
[15:33] <rowells> (In that specific setup)
[15:33] <caprisunkraftfoods> nah I've got ~140k EHP base
[15:34] <sturm_gewehr> Capri, what do you think about 6 lows on the loki with web subsystem?
[15:34] <rowells> Yeah you can get it higher, but comparing between the same fits (minus a slot) the loss is significant
[15:47] <white0rchid> Legions/proteus could still get good tank
[15:47] <white0rchid> WIthout their weapons
[15:48] <rowells> But my geuss is that if the fit can't get ~80k tank with one web, it'll be too little
[15:48] <caprisunkraftfoods> tons of people use that fit
[15:48] <white0rchid> But the loki weapons were crap for AHAC fleets but the webs were awesome
[15:48] <white0rchid> So that's why they could fit good tank
[15:48] <rowells> Yeah that's going to be a bane of Loki fits, since the webs are so popular
[15:49] <rowells> Good tank for utility, poor tank for arty
[15:50] <caprisunkraftfoods> @ccp_fozzie is there any chance of reverting the loki web range nerf? I don't think anyone had a problem with it before and it just seems like a really annoying gimping to the ship
[15:50] <caprisunkraftfoods> especially in context of its use as a shield webbing platform since most shield comps are more kiting/range focussed
[15:52] <sturm_gewehr> That could make them a bit too strong outside of that context.
[15:52] <noxisia> Agree w/Sturm
[15:52] <ccp_fozzie> I know @asher_elias earlier in the discussion was definitely expressing a problem with it before
[15:52] <sturm_gewehr> Especially if they keep the heat bonus.
[15:53] <icarus_narcissus> Think of the Rapiers! For just 1 not-reverting-a-nerf today, you can give a rapier a spot in a covops fleet :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:54] <white0rchid> I'm not sure the range was that much of an issue
[15:54] <icarus_narcissus> Honestly though, I think the Loki is in a good spot right now with the T3 flavor.
[15:54] <icarus_narcissus> the web bonus I mean
[15:54] <white0rchid> Rapiers already go on covops fleets tbh
[15:54] <white0rchid> At least the majority of bb fleets have rapier/falcon
[15:55] <rowells> im just super-happy that I can now use probes in one of the utility slots
[15:55] <white0rchid> Loki webs aren't as strong as the huginn/rapier right now anyway are they?
[15:55] <caprisunkraftfoods> @ccp_fozzie asher's problem was mainly with the tank and the overall strength of a machariel fleet supported by loki webs. With the tank nerfed such as it is that problem is essentially solved
[15:55] <rowells> _you can run, but not for long!_
[15:55] <icarus_narcissus> @white0rchid I meant if the nerf was reverted and you could stick one of these new lokis in with the old bonus -- that could hurt the rapier
[15:56] <white0rchid> Yes and no, you still have the downsides of cost and risk (of dying and skill loss)
[15:56] <white0rchid> But a lot of people may start using T3s now anyway
[15:56] <rowells> @white0rchid loki goes out to about 37.5km
[15:56] <sturm_gewehr> Right now with faction webs loki gets 33.8/48.9km web range and huginn gets 60/78.
[15:56] <white0rchid> Yeah
[15:56] <white0rchid> That's not so bad
[15:56] <sturm_gewehr> Loki can easily get twice the ehp of the huginn.
[15:57] <white0rchid> When you say 'right now' you mean on tq?
[15:57] <sturm_gewehr> More than double.
[15:57] <sturm_gewehr> No.
[15:57] <icarus_narcissus> Right now at max skills, the new Loki gets 125% bonus cold, 181% bonus hot.
[15:57] <icarus_narcissus> The Rapier gets 300% bonus cold
[15:57] <rowells> old bonus was 150% cold
[15:57] <sturm_gewehr> I am talking about with proposed changes.
[15:57] <white0rchid> Right I see
[15:57] <rowells> so that's why I like the new bonus
[15:57] <sturm_gewehr> Buffing the loki web range would make it almost de facto small gang ship.
[15:58] <caprisunkraftfoods> @sturm_gewehr hey can you use imgur for images you post? apparently they don't show up in the logs if you use the slack upload thing
[15:58] <caprisunkraftfoods> someone just reddit mailed me asking about it :stuck_out_tongue:
[15:58] <sturm_gewehr> Okay.
[15:58] <white0rchid> So just looking at the other recons vs T3s right now
[15:58] <white0rchid> I know you can't *always* compare
[15:58] <rowells> this is why a forum section would be good
[15:59] <rowells> but that's another topic
[15:59] <sturm_gewehr> What range do you think is acceptable for loki capri?
[15:59] <caprisunkraftfoods> I mean I'd say the old range was totally fine
[16:00] <caprisunkraftfoods> 46.3k cold, 58.4k hot with links
[16:00] <sturm_gewehr> Old range with bigger shield tank and better offensive subs for small gang.
[16:00] <rowells> anyone know offhand what the new vanilla max is with heat bonus applied?
[16:00] <rowells> or w/links if you know
[16:01] <rowells> ive got like 5 pyfas and 3 EFTs and I did not properly name them so idk what version is what
[16:01] <white0rchid> So right now on tq (without rigs/lows), the ecm tengu gets 6.75 sensor strength on a T2 jam, whereas a falcon gets 11.3. However the tengu gets a 70km optimal, wheras the falcon is only 43km
[16:01] <white0rchid> So I like that sort of tradeoff
[16:01] <white0rchid> The tengu is weaker in strength, but better in range
[16:01] <caprisunkraftfoods> 31.5k new vs 35k old
[16:01] <white0rchid> I doubt you'd add strength to the loki webs
[16:01] <caprisunkraftfoods> thats without links
[16:02] <white0rchid> Because that's not really how it works
[16:02] <rowells> and comparing heated ranges?
[16:03] <noxisia> you can see the images in the logs if you click on the link
[16:03] <noxisia> I just checked the direct upload images on the logs
[16:03] <rowells> was that while logged into this slack group?
[16:04] <sturm_gewehr> I am afraid of 50/60km 100mn or 50mn web lokis with 400-500 dps.
[16:04] <rowells> that would be very awkward if a third party could see images from a private group
[16:04] <white0rchid> Ok so, at present on T1, the falcon is around 60% better at jamming than the tengu, the huginnare also about 60% better at webbing than the loki
[16:04] <white0rchid> So the bonuses to range as they are now are fairly consistent across races
[16:05] <white0rchid> If you make a change it brings that difference down a bit
[16:05] <caprisunkraftfoods> i'm pretty sure thats only because you're logged in
[16:06] <noxisia> I just tried it in a private window
[16:06] <noxisia> I'll try to use Imgur links as well
[16:07] <white0rchid> So what does everyone here think of that? At present the falcon/rook to tengu and huginn/rapier to loki bonuses are almost identical
[16:07] <caprisunkraftfoods> sharex is your best friend
[16:07] <white0rchid> In that the recons are ~60% better
[16:07] <white0rchid> in both situations
[16:07] <white0rchid> I feel that's a good argument for keeping the loki where it is now
[16:08] <noxisia> I already agreed that I'm happy with where the loki was now, but I think your comparison is apt.
[16:09] <rowells> actually if we follow 60% then the loki is too high
[16:09] <rowells> wait
[16:09] <white0rchid> Well, tengu => falcon is actually 67%
[16:09] <white0rchid> thereabouts
[16:10] <rowells> fuck I cant do math
[16:10] <noxisia> lol
[16:10] <sturm_gewehr> I am not happy about keeping loki web range as is.
[16:10] <noxisia> You're not the only one who's made a couple math mistakes
[16:10] <sturm_gewehr> Given its new power level.
[16:10] <caprisunkraftfoods> I understand where you're going but this seems like a bad argument
[16:11] <rowells> new power level?
[16:11] <sturm_gewehr> New loki offensive subs.
[16:11] <sturm_gewehr> With decent mobility subs.
[16:12] <rowells> its gonna depend on the sub then, the prop sub probably defines tank more than the actual tank sub for slots
[16:13] <sturm_gewehr> What I mean is the web loki will already be a meta defining ship for small gang with its existing web bonus.
[16:13] <sturm_gewehr> With these changes.
[16:13] <sturm_gewehr> Defining but probably not OP.
[16:14] <sturm_gewehr> 58km webs will be difficult to balance on a platform with potent offensive capabilities.
[16:15] <sturm_gewehr> And I quite like the new loki as it stands now for its role.
[16:16] <sturm_gewehr> Basically as strong as the orthrus was loki with 58km webs will be as strong if not significantly stronger.
[16:17] <white0rchid> Is that with links?
[16:17] <sturm_gewehr> I understand possibly giving it a bit more web range, but putting it to live values would create a monster.
[16:17] <white0rchid> the 59km?
[16:17] <sturm_gewehr> That's per capri' s comment abovr.
[16:17] <rowells> which weapons are you using for the 4-500 dps?
[16:17] <white0rchid> Right now on Tq an unlinked fed navy web, heated, gets to 45.5km on a loki
[16:17] <rowells> only thing I see reaching that far is heavy missiles
[16:18] <white0rchid> True sansha is better actually, 48.8km
[16:19] <white0rchid> To have links AND weapons on that, you'd need another booster with you
[16:19] <sturm_gewehr> Arty sub gets 45+33km range with rf du, no range mods and does 408dps with drones.
[16:19] <white0rchid> So you either choose dps, or you choose web range
[16:19] <white0rchid> If you are the only loki, for instance
[16:19] <sturm_gewehr> With 2 faction gyros.
[16:19] <sturm_gewehr> And this is on a 100mm fit with 2 acrs.
[16:20] <sturm_gewehr> Can easily get better range and damage.
[16:20] <white0rchid> Heated TS web on a loki on sisi is 19.9km
[16:20] <white0rchid> without links
[16:21] <sturm_gewehr> Which isn't nearly as bad as 58km.
[16:21] <white0rchid> No, but I'd argue it's not enough to be a decent kiting fit
[16:22] <sturm_gewehr> Also is it really just 19.5? My eft says 33.8.
[16:22] <white0rchid> I'd rather take a huginn with dscan immunity who can smash heated webs out to 78km than that
[16:22] <sturm_gewehr> I think the bonuses are wrong
[16:22] <sturm_gewehr> On sisi.
[16:22] <white0rchid> Maybe my pyfa is broken then
[16:22] <white0rchid> That doesn't sound right either
[16:22] <white0rchid> at all
[16:22] <sturm_gewehr> 15km range on ts web base.
[16:22] <white0rchid> yeah
[16:22] <white0rchid> it's broken
[16:23] <white0rchid> so 33.8 is unheated? or heated?
[16:23] <rowells> yeah pyfa is broken on webs
[16:23] <rowells> 33.8 will be cold
[16:23] <sturm_gewehr> 33.8km unheated.
[16:23] <sturm_gewehr> Before links.
[16:23] <sturm_gewehr> Is plenty for a kiting ship.
[16:24] <rowells> now I will say it wont be nearly as bad as the orthrus since its webs and not point
[16:24] <sturm_gewehr> That's just a small part of the equation though.
[16:25] <rowells> maybe, it means support is required and puts us into a weird blended territory
[16:25] <sturm_gewehr> The webs are much better for range control.
[16:25] <sturm_gewehr> And screening.
[16:25] <sturm_gewehr> Orthrus defensive scram is much less range than loki webs.
[16:26] <sturm_gewehr> Loki also much tankier.
[16:26] <rowells> with a 100mn? by how much?
[16:27] <sturm_gewehr> How much do you want?
[16:27] <rowells> ballpark
[16:28] <sturm_gewehr> 3 slot tank on loki gets 40k ehp before heat and links.
[16:28] <sturm_gewehr> This is with 2 webs a point and a cap injector.
[16:28] <sturm_gewehr> And 720s.
[16:29] <sturm_gewehr> Same tank layout on orthrus is 27k ehp.
[16:29] <sturm_gewehr> Although we wouldn't fit an orthrus that way.
[16:29] <sturm_gewehr> Ours are usually xlasb with lse.
[16:30] <sturm_gewehr> So less ehp and resists.
[16:30] <sturm_gewehr> For comparison as well, that orthrus gets 20km scram with heat.
[16:30] <sturm_gewehr> Currently loki gets 33.8km cold webs.
[16:31] <sturm_gewehr> You can easily increase the ehp on the loki by a lot, or do active tank fits.
[16:32] <sturm_gewehr> Loki as is will be in a good place for small gang and skirmish, buffing web range will put it over the edge into absurdity and I really don't want that.
[16:33] <sturm_gewehr> And you can pin that statement and hold onto it if live web bonuses stay with the new changes.
[16:42] <sturm_gewehr> Even right now with links eft is telling me it is possible to get 62.7km range with links and heat.
[16:42] <sturm_gewehr> With the proposed changes.
[16:43] <rowells> WAIT, THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE OLD MAX RANGE
[16:43] <rowells> wait, that sounds like the old max range
[16:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> everyone uses fed navy webs
[16:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> for 60% factor
[16:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> not TS for 55%
[16:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> like if you're gonna compare old to new
[16:43] <caprisunkraftfoods> at least compare what people actually use
[16:44] <rowells> nah, I prefer the true sansha over fed navy
[16:44] <caprisunkraftfoods> then you are in the extreme minority
[16:44] <rowells> I am a pioneer
[16:45] <sturm_gewehr> If you are able to easily fit dual webs, the range and cpu saved is worthwhile.
[16:46] <sturm_gewehr> But you can just as easily use the Fed Navy if you want.
[16:48] <sturm_gewehr> In this circumstance at least.
[16:48] <rowells> tbh the only real solution for cases like this is to look at the sensors again. Most lokis ive flown have almost always required a sebo since without it the web range is worthless
[16:49] <rowells> the targeting range got buffed with the changes, bring that back down would help
[16:49] <rowells> and makes the difference between huginn/rapier and loki a bit bigger as well, while not hurting base effectiveness
[16:49] <sturm_gewehr> I like the buff to targeting stats.
[16:50] <sturm_gewehr> 81km lock range is still easy to damp.
[16:50] <sturm_gewehr> 20.4 sensor strength still easy to jam.
[16:51] <rowells> relatively, but drop one web for a sebo and then its going to take quite a bit more
[16:52] <sturm_gewehr> Huginn still almost doubles the loki in lock range.
[16:52] <rowells> yes
[16:53] <rowells> a little over double its cold web range
[16:54] <rowells> shit, most BS would probably kill for that kind of sensor package
[16:56] <rowells> so its extremely strong if you cant hit it. on the flip side, the loki is quite a bit weaker in ewar defense, but is much more survivable under fire.
[17:02] <rowells> I like the sensor buff too, but that's more along the lines of filling in a crack, then making a new crack to balance
[17:13] <asher_elias> @ccp_fozzie @caprisunkraftfoods re: webs, I think that having any extremely tanky web (and the web loki is still very tanky) is problematic for the overall meta of the game. It overly favours arty because lokis are prelocked so you must alpha strike them because you can't punch through reps. The combination of really strong webs and not being able to clear them keeps a lot of mobile doctrines that would work in the 50-100km range from viability. The cerb is popular because it applies the damage well outside of web range and has the speed and mobility to avoid those webs if you use dictors correctly and your FC doesn't make a mistake. If long webs were more killable (aka hugginized) you could possibly see some more mid range doctrines that try to kill the webs take hold. The problem with damps is when someone has 10-15 lokis it just takes you missing one and then your FC ship is webbed and you can't kill that loki so you are just stuck forever because the rest have now burned through the damp lock range and webbed you too.
[17:17] <asher_elias> that is hilarious, I will 100% be running something like this if it goes live on TQ, I've been trying and failing to make a cerb doctrine that goes fast enough that machs can't volley them, maybe this one will finally achieve that holiest of grails
[17:20] <caprisunkraftfoods> that ship is terrible
[17:20] <caprisunkraftfoods> I can't wait to kill them all asher
[17:21] <caprisunkraftfoods> all gl getting enough x-type 500mn mwds to run those with GSF
[17:21] <asher_elias> I'm talking about with reavers
[17:21] <asher_elias> ~40 is easier to source than 4000
[17:21] <asher_elias> I run all my pocket doctrines in reavers not GSF
[17:21] <asher_elias> 40 man fleets are more fun than 400
[17:22] <asher_elias> @caprisunkraftfoods just as a useful thought excercise, how are you going to kill them?
[17:22] <caprisunkraftfoods> bassically anything with medium weapons is going to track those
[17:23] <caprisunkraftfoods> like yeah in theory if you get up to speed and overheat everything okay they'll speed tank
[17:23] <caprisunkraftfoods> but you're gonna lose half your fleet before you get to that point
[17:40] <asher_elias> as an aside part of the problem from FCing from lokis is they lack the hac MWD reduction
[17:40] <sturm_gewehr> strong mindflood also has no penalties
[17:40] <sturm_gewehr> that effect this ship
[17:40] <asher_elias> they are ridiculously easy to headshot
[17:40] <sturm_gewehr> so you can easily link and provide reps with the same platforms
[17:41] <asher_elias> yeah it looks like a real fun doctrine
[17:41] <asher_elias> but the agility is right on the edge of viable
[17:41] <asher_elias> anywhere closer to 20s and it becomes waaay worse
[17:42] <sturm_gewehr> also you would need to make some sacrifices for more range
[17:42] <sturm_gewehr> With links right now it gets down to 15.4
[17:42] <asher_elias> yeah, that's what I mean edge of viable
[17:43] <asher_elias> anything above that gets too be too clunky for logi, especially t3 logi
[17:43] <asher_elias> you start spreading out too much
[17:43] <asher_elias> I tried 500mn cerbs but the spread is just too much
[17:43] <asher_elias> did a bunch of testing on sisi
[20:07] <sturm_gewehr> How much dps does the current wh ham legion do?
[21:31] <exooki> 647
[21:31] <exooki> with 153k ehp ( no links, no implants)
[22:14] <white0rchid> Those sure are some creative fits
[22:16] <sturm_gewehr> @ccp_fozzie when are the changes hitting the test server and any chance you can seed dead space and officer modules in 6-cz? Ideally also give out free SP or seed full extractors?
[22:20] <exooki> I would agree that if possible, seeding faction/deadspace on SiSi makes some sense here, as its pretty likely most t3s are going to be blinged
[22:20] <sturm_gewehr> And officer.
[22:21] <sturm_gewehr> And storyline if it isn't already.
[22:21] <exooki> i know theres reasons they aren't normally, but its hard to get the full picture of what they will do ( or not do) with just T2
[22:21] <exooki> especially when many fits wont even work with only t2
[22:24] <sturm_gewehr> And T3 are some of the most used ships for higher meta modules.
[22:25] <sturm_gewehr> @exooki is that dps number for the legion with rage?