[01:28] <selto_black> Fozzie: when should we expect the logs to go public?
[01:45] <selto_black> currently playtesting Null ratting agains guristas in deklin on tq
[01:45] <selto_black> inb4 titan
[02:10] <chessur> Why do i still feel like we are half assing this?
[02:11] <chessur> I just want to toss out to you guys(edited)
[02:11] <chessur> That i still feel really with out direction, and its frustrating for me personally(edited)
[02:11] <chessur> No ones fault really :)
[02:12] <chessur> I guess it's difficult to perceive progress inside a think tank
[02:14] <syenna-celeste> You're not the only one. There's a lot of potential energy here but when it's exploding in all directions that isn't really getting us anywhere.
[02:14] <syenna-celeste> Unless that was the idea?
[02:14] <syenna-celeste> idk
[03:35] <chessur> More structure, more guide posts and specific topics for conversation is needed.
[03:35] <chessur> Right now, its just everyone yelling in a room
[04:03] <sardcaid> So given the varied nature of this group, what I think we should do is some combination of coming up with a list of topics, and having all participants note their thoughts for us to discuss
[04:04] <sardcaid> My idea with that spreadsheet is to grab problem statements, solutions and ideas, debate points disagreed or unique, then create summary document for group / CCP
[04:06] <sardcaid> I think we can also come up with consensus topics for a day, something like "hecate", "confessor", "propulsion mode", etc
[04:07] <selto_black> I'd like to know the limits on what we can recommend for changes. Are we limited to just altering the bonuses or are we free to suggest changes to other things as well.
[04:09] <sardcaid> I don't think we should limit ourselves to anything, nor do I think CCP is going to outright suggest a limitation
[04:10] <sardcaid> What I am personally limiting myself to, which you don't have to follow at all, is the normal bounds of ship attributes / characteristics in relation to current T3D function
[04:10] <sardcaid> I'm comparing T3D to T2 destroyers, T2 bonuses and destroyers in general
[04:11] <sardcaid> Off the wall stuff like temporary invulnerability mode, radical module alterations etc I'm not considering, as it's beyond the bounds of "easy balance fix"
[04:12] <sardcaid> That's not to say it's thoughtful, inspirational stuff that Rise will jump on to create the new destroyer sized ishtar
[04:14] <selto_black> What about the fitting discrepancy between ac's and artys? Do you believe that to be beyond the scope of this discussion?
[04:18] <sardcaid> So as far as easy to do and directly related to T3D? No.
[04:19] <sardcaid> Given it feels like a major issue with Svipul, it's not a bad thing to toss time at, but I'd rather iron out all other factors as much as possible, first
[04:19] <sardcaid> Something that bothers me about that assessment is that we have the Sabre and Thrasher that seem to function just fine between the two weapon systems
[04:20] <sardcaid> Again, I'm doing a lot of my comparisons with T3D to existing ships of that class
[04:22] <sardcaid> I'm not sure how much you're really looking for changes wise, given your statements so far
[04:22] <sardcaid> From what I've seen you're more challenging and tempering the debate to keep PvE in mind, which I think is great!
[04:23] <sardcaid> It's my view that as long as the ship is a tough combat ship with a large cargo bay and easy fitting for a probe launcher, it's going to have a good place in PvE
[04:23] <sardcaid> But things like how the ship works in specific sites and WH is beyond my experience
[04:50] <selto_black> Yeah, I'm mostly going to be reactionary.
[04:52] <sardcaid> Hopping off for the night. I'm hoping that we can start to round up ideas in addition to the meandering discussion that's taken place so far over this next week
[05:08] <johndrees> I have an idea, shall we all go on a roam in some t3d today? It might be fun, we can discuss things while we roam around, stream the whole thing so it's not a closed door to people interested in what's going on in the focus group. We could even just spend some time on the test server, voice coms in an of itself can often be a more effective way to communicate than text.
[05:11] <sardcaid> Sounds like fun. I won't be able to attend, but the more open we're about stuff I think the better
[05:12] <sardcaid> If that ends up happening, I'd recommend that any action items or conclusions are shared here
[05:13] <sardcaid> I was tempted to ask we put together a skype group, but I think I can articulate everything here in a way that's easy for posterity to review
[05:14] <sardcaid> Like chessur said, having discussion topics for perhaps one or another day would be a good way to drive debate without going in circular motions
[05:16] <selto_black> I'd be down for that.
[05:16] <sardcaid> Okay.
[05:17] <sardcaid> To get the ball rolling, why don't we start on defensive modes? What's good? What's bad? Are changes needed? Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's defensive mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out.
[05:17] <sardcaid> We can talk about that for the rest of the day and pick up another topic for tomorrow.
[05:18] <sardcaid> that'll give everyone time to pitch in their thoughts across time zones and work hours
[05:20] <johndrees> Ok, well I'll start by saying I think that the hecate has a very interesting and balanced defensive mode due to it not stacking with bonuses from link ships.
[05:20] <selto_black> I'd like to see the confessors sig reduction bonus removed. Combined with links drugs and implants it simply scales too well, the only thing keeping it from being as op as the svipul is the extra mass it has over every other t3d .
[05:22] <johndrees> Well, that would be ok. I don't know how much kiting you've done in your confessor but in mine I'm almost never in defensive mode unless I'm scrammed so my sig radius is relatively small and less relevant than the fact that I'm no longer moving at prop mod speeds.
[05:23] <johndrees> You could remove the mode and I wouldn't really notice with the ship lol.
[05:23] <sardcaid> I think you would, and do
[05:23] <sardcaid> but only if you're brawling
[05:23] <sardcaid> john I'm assuming you run beams most often?
[05:24] <johndrees> Almost always, since the nerf to the initial 10mn fits the ship preforms better as a kiting option than a brawling one.
[05:26] <johndrees> And when I'm kiting, defense mode is a last ditch escape effort once I've been scrammed at best.
[05:26] <selto_black> I also run beams during pve. Using defensive mode as an "oh crap" button when my tank is breaking is useful, but imo overpowered. It simply allowes you to survive too long vs large opponents.
[05:27] <sardcaid> So I'm with Selto - any time the signature of the T3D approaches frigate levels I've personally felt that T3Ds are too tanky
[05:27] <sardcaid> What I do think is interesting and healthy is an MWD sig bloom bonus, probably just slapped onto the base hull
[05:29] <sardcaid> for example with that signature bonus, the confessor drops from 60 sig (average dessie sig) to 40 (combat frigate sig)
[05:30] <sardcaid> on top of having T2 resists, and again 33% bonus
[05:30] <sardcaid> for both the svipul and the confessor signature is a big factor in their tick like nature when they're brawling with ships of the same class, or larger ships
[05:31] <sardcaid> as usual this is greatly compounded issue with ganglinks
[05:47] <sardcaid> So if we do away with the flat sig bonus on the confessor, what do we replace it with?
[05:48] <sardcaid> while it'd be cool I don't like adding a second resist bonus to hull or shields
[05:49] <sardcaid> I'm a fan of dropping mode swap resist bonuses to 20% level, and adding a second tank bonus
[05:49] <sardcaid> for instance with the confessor, 20% to armor plus a rep amount
[05:52] <sardcaid> Even in fleet use I don't typically see plates used with T3D, usually an ancil rep on armor tankers, resist mods, DCU and damage mods
[05:52] <sardcaid> I think it's also a fun option to have to push buttons to stay alive, so I'm usually a fan of rep bonuses
[05:53] <johndrees> Yeah, I like that, I especially like that when applied to the svipul.
[05:53] <sardcaid> svipul to me is kinda interesting
[05:53] <chessur> I like rep bonus, or reactive armor hardener bonus
[05:53] <sardcaid> the defensive bonus is resist across shields and armor, then an MWD sig bonus
[05:54] <sardcaid> yeah reactive is pretty neat
[05:54] <chessur> The more you can stay away from sig / raw resistance the better imo
[05:54] <chessur> I really hate sig bonus on defensive
[05:55] <sardcaid> sure
[05:55] <sardcaid> what about MWD sig bonus on base hull?
[05:56] <sardcaid> I was initially tossing around only having that on propulsion mode, but it seemed nonsensical to punish defensive or sharpshooter modes for running the prop
[05:56] <sardcaid> for sniping or kiting you're constantly running prop
[05:59] <johndrees> It would pair well with the shift to an mwd only bonus for these ships as well.
[05:59] <sardcaid> Yeah
[06:00] <sardcaid> I feel it's kind of a boring bonus to throw at T3D, but in my eyes the T3D is a highly adaptable T2 dessie, and T2 ships at large enjoy the sig bloom bonus
[06:01] <sardcaid> It's a fairly well balanced bonus and makes sense for the T3D role
[06:01] <selto_black> If the base hull got an mwd sig reduction bonus on the hull I'd be fine with it. It would punish the confessor a bit though in pve due to cap issues.
[06:01] <sardcaid> really?
[06:01] <sardcaid> how so?
[06:02] <selto_black> Mostly with respects to sleepers and bloodraiders where you need to be close to neut range to mitagate damage.
[06:02] <johndrees> Well, to be honest a hull based sig bonus represents a buff to the kiting beam confessor, since it would be applied more often than it is now being only applied when in defensive mode.
[06:03] <selto_black> A rep cap reduction would balance that out and make dual rep pvp confessor fits viable.
[06:11] <sardcaid> so I don't quite understand selto, in PvE are you running with oversized prop?
[06:11] <sardcaid> 10mn AB?
[06:12] <sardcaid> Yes john, for how you fly it a hull based MWD sig bloom bonus would be a buff to the beam confessor's surviveability
[06:13] <chessur> I like mwd sig blood bonus
[06:14] <chessur> Bade hull sig reduction makes ab fits too op
[06:14] <sardcaid> blood bonus, suddenly I'm thinking binding of isaac an the blood laser beam
[06:14] <selto_black> No 1mn beam confessor.
[06:15] <sardcaid> I think oversized prop should be an option, but it really doesn't need help to have potential
[06:15] <sardcaid> so 1mn AB or MWD?
[06:17] <selto_black> Mwd is 5mn.
[06:17] <sardcaid> that's right, okay
[06:18] <selto_black> Check#randomfor full fit
[06:18] <sardcaid> so if you're using a 1mn AB fit right now, how is that punishing the capacitor of the confessor for sleepers / blood raiders?
[06:20] <selto_black> If I had to use an mwd. The reason for me using an ab ATM is that it dosent bloom my sig and still allowes me to go 1k in speed.
[06:22] <sardcaid> I see
[06:23] <sardcaid> so with the consensus prop mod proposal you'd be dragooned into using a MWD
[06:23] <selto_black> Yes.
[06:24] <selto_black> Which would mean a change from rep rigs to optimal range rigs. And just kite all damage at 40.
[06:29] <sardcaid> I think there's a number of possible solutions
[06:30] <sardcaid> I don't doubt you can find several ways to get around this
[06:30] <sardcaid> I don't mind to be dismissive about it, but I don't see this as a problem
[06:31] <sardcaid> I think it was discussed previously of adapting more cap regen or injection mods, I'll add using oversized prop, potentially pulsing your MWD vs keeping it on
[06:32] <sardcaid> in general PvE is so easy it's very open to interpretation
[06:32] <sardcaid> I think the biggest question is with new content with sleepers or burners whether we're eliminating player ingenuity
[06:33] <sardcaid> wouldn't surprise me if we were, but I'd say that it was possible in the first place is because the ship wasn't well balanced to start
[06:36] <johnnytwelvebore> Yeah I have a lot of stuff to catch up on, shift the bearing chat to general huh?:)
[06:38] <suitonia> As a counter-point, although it would have reduced flat line speed, 66% agility resulting in a 1.99 align like hecate would help 1mn ab fits and oversized prop mods especially still mitigate damage
[06:38] <suitonia> because you could turn at sharper angles
[06:38] <suitonia> for 10mn ab this is a significant bonus too
[06:39] <sardcaid> ahhhhhh I really don't agree with 66% agility buff but yeah a big agility buff is gonna help with oversized prop
[06:39] <sardcaid> you won't be as fast, and to selto's point not near as fast with 1mn AB
[06:39] <suitonia> Thats what hecate has, and it balances defence mode somewhat
[06:39] <suitonia> hecate base align is 5.97s
[06:40] <suitonia> 1.99 in speed mode
[06:40] <sardcaid> right, and I don't think unlockable before warp is healthy even if in prop mode
[06:40] <suitonia> you're slow as a bc and have cruiser agility in defence, but in speed mode you are more agile than a dramiel
[06:40] <suitonia> you can already perform that Sard with mode swapping
[06:40] <sardcaid> we're talking about removing velocity bonus, so no that would not be possible
[06:41] <suitonia> I mean going from the confessor current speed mode to the hecate speed mode
[06:41] <johnnytwelvebore> He actually has a point about the PVE thing in T3Ds in lowsec though, they can move about easily, scan, run 3/10s, blap those tag rats , etc.
[06:41] <sardcaid> yup
[06:41] <johnnytwelvebore> In high you'd be better off with something else I'm sure but for roaming round low it would be ideal.
[06:41] <suitonia> the end result is both confessors can instawarp
[06:41] <sardcaid> depends on the magnitude of that agility bonus, which is what I'll argue when the topic comes up
[06:42] <sardcaid> suitonia do you have EFT or pyfa available?
[06:43] <sardcaid> anyone for that matter?
[06:45] <selto_black> Not currently.
[06:45] <sardcaid> ok
[06:46] <suitonia> yes
[06:46] <sardcaid> what is the base align time of the hurricane or brutix?
[06:46] <sardcaid> all V
[06:47] <suitonia> ALL V No Modules with penalty/bonuses Brutix 7.51s Hurricane 8.02s
[06:47] <sardcaid> ok
[06:48] <sardcaid> thanks!
[06:48] <sardcaid> Going back to defensive mode, how do people feel about the defensive mode of the jackdaw, if we move away from giving T3D sig radius bonuses?
[06:48] <sardcaid> would the sig radius bonus swap out to boost amount?
[06:48] <suitonia> I don't think the defence mode is as problematic on the jackdaw
[06:48] <syenna-celeste> depends what happens with its midslots.
[06:49] <suitonia> because it has a high base sig anyway
[06:49] <suitonia> especially with buffer
[06:49] <suitonia> and much lower base speed
[06:49] <suitonia> the Confessor on the other hand has a smaller sig than a punisher in defence mode
[06:49] <sardcaid> would you still feel that way if the jackdaw had a MWD sig bloom bonus?
[06:49] <sardcaid> as well as defensive mode sig bonus?
[06:50] <syenna-celeste> it would still be slow as sin outside of prop
[06:50] <suitonia> Does it need both ?
[06:50] <syenna-celeste> I thought the idea was to replace one with the other anyway?
[06:51] <sardcaid> I think having a mwd sig bonus on the hull is a good addition, so that's the question
[06:51] <sardcaid> on the base hull
[06:51] <suitonia> The hecate doesn't have any sig reduction bonuses
[06:52] <suitonia> and I feel like it's fine
[06:52] <suitonia> I mean 66% agility is a huge bonus when you're trying to mitigate DPS, especially close range
[06:52] <namamai> ?*nod*?
[06:52] <suitonia> since you have almost perfect turning
[06:53] <namamai> That said, most of the agility bonus goes away as soon as you're webbed
[06:53] <suitonia> yeah of course, but I like that balance
[06:53] <suitonia> Interceptor agility, and combat frig speeds out of scram range. Cruiser Agility/BC speed when scrammed in defencd
[06:54] <sardcaid> in defensive mode you have the really powerful 33% resist bonuses, which aren't seen anywhere else in the game, especially paired with T2 resists. The closest you have is bastion mode, which comes with a large penalty. My thoughts are to reduce that defensive mode resist in line with other resist bonuses (from 33% to 20%), and add in some other forms of damage mitigation.
[06:54] <sardcaid> in general dessies with frigate sig is bad
[06:54] <sardcaid> so I'm shying away from that
[06:54] <namamai> I like that -- it reduces some of the ridiculous active tanks you can achieve while still keeping it viable for fleet
[06:55] <sardcaid> in general T2 ships have MWD sig bonuses, and the T3D is emulating ships that have that role bonus
[06:56] <sardcaid> I think it's a safe addition the T3D that accounts for the defensive mode nerf, and allows us to adjust other aspects of the tankiness of the ship while further enabling players to fly with MWDs for fleet work
[06:57] <sardcaid> further on the agility, 2 and lower agility is only achieved even on interceptors with istabs, nanos and gang bonuses
[06:57] <sardcaid> you design interceptors for 2 and lower agility, it's not something casually achieved
[06:58] <sardcaid> and even then it's only a point of contention for me due to server ticks
[06:58] <sardcaid> I think frigates and the like should be able to disrupt a T3D on decloak / arrival on grid
[06:59] <sardcaid> without the aid of a bubble
[07:00] <sardcaid> maybe that means increasing the base signature and reducing the agility bonus on the mode swap
[07:00] <sardcaid> I don't know
[07:00] <sardcaid> AFK
[07:01] <suitonia> signature doesn't matter
[07:02] <suitonia> Me and Kadesh tested this with a <2.0 align cynabal on SISI
[07:02] <suitonia> with 5x LSEs in the mids
[07:02] <suitonia> all shield rigs
[07:03] <suitonia> it had 400m+ sig but still didn't get locked by a london based client with 8x RSBs on claw, with quafe and 6% scan res implant
[08:52] <ascentior> Regarding moving bonuses to modules (the examples were mwd and active tanking) I feel that will severely limit variation, and active tanking only bonuses would make them obsolete for any sort of main-line fleet ship or small gang brawling.
[08:52] <chessur> These defensive stats are just sounding more and more like dictors / afs lol
[08:52] <chessur> Jackdaw is probably the weakest t3d imo. Very slow, meh dps
[08:53] <chessur> It just has ok tank for small plexes haha
[09:01] <namamai> Yeah -- I'm not sure why we're talking about Jackdaw nerfs when there's a Svipul to deal with
[09:05] <sardcaid> I think if they're sounding more like dictors, that's actually a good thing. My reason is it means they're sounding more like T2 destroyer power level ships, versus the ships they are now.
[09:07] <sardcaid> If we're able to give easy fixes for CCP, then move into more difficult to balance fixes / changes, like weapon changes or radical mode changes, then we've done good work
[09:07] <sardcaid> more options more better
[09:16] <sardcaid> I don't think they're ever going to be?*just*?interdictors, as you have the sharpshooter mode which grants far better EWAR and projection than dictor bonuses alone, you have propulsion mode that grants better maneuverability and raw speed than dictor bonuses alone, and you'd have a defensive mode that grants equivalent or as currently specced better tanking than the proposed MJD tanky T2 dessies
[09:16] <sardcaid> on top of heat bonus, probing bonus
[09:21] <chessur> You're not wrong sard
[09:21] <chessur> When i get home, i will five full answers to the questions you posted
[09:21] <sardcaid> cool
[09:22] <chessur> I am happy that some direction is made
[09:22] <chessur> And it seems that most people are on board with your plan
[09:22] <sardcaid> we've had 75% of participants out for the day
[09:24] <namamai> (did the MJD dessies get stats published and I somehow missed it?)
[09:24] <sardcaid> nah
[09:25] <sardcaid> just basing that statement off CCP proposal to make it tanky
[09:25] <sardcaid> I'm assuming resist bonus plus good tank layout
[09:25] <namamai> Also, sard, can you sticky those five questions?
[09:26] <sardcaid> "To get the ball rolling, why don't we start on defensive modes? What's good? What's bad? Are changes needed? Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's defensive mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out." this?
[09:26] <namamai> think so, ya
[09:27] <namamai> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. sardcaid "To get the ball rolling, why don't we start on defensive modes? What's good? What's bad? Are changes needed? Please be specific, in that if you think one ship's defensive mode is fine and another's isn't, point that out." this? Oct 12th at 9:26 PM
[09:27] <sardcaid> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. sardcaid Okay. Oct 12th at 5:16 PM
[09:27] <sardcaid> the one I pinned has context
[09:27] <namamai> ?*nod*?
[09:29] <namamai> While I'm working on a longer answer, one thing I wanted to throw out for food for thought: The Hecate defensive bonus to rep speed is really interesting given the popularity of SAARs
[09:29] <namamai> Incredible burst tank, but it drains SAARs very quickly.
[09:30] <namamai> For that reason, most Hecates use SAR2s instead, which have higher cap drain and higher fitting and lower tank but afford sustained tank.
[09:30] <namamai> I wonder if a similar bonus on shield would discourage ridiculous MASB tanks for Svipul and Jackdaw.
[09:30] <sardcaid> well
[09:31] <sardcaid> problem with that is duration on shield boosters
[09:31] <sardcaid> cycle time for armor reps is mostly to account for HP on end of cycle
[09:31] <namamai> (It'd boost the power of cheap deadspace shield boosters though :\)
[09:31] <namamai> Yeah, that's a good point.
[09:31] <sardcaid> if you buff cycle time on a small boooster, which is already 2 second it'd be pretty nutty
[09:31] <sardcaid> small / medium
[09:31] <sardcaid> pretty sure medium is 2 seconds
[09:32] <namamai> 3 seconds before skills/hardwires.
[09:33] <sardcaid> what does hecate bonus knock down SAR cycle time to?
[09:33] <sardcaid> it's a 33% duration reduction
[09:34] <sardcaid> it knocks it down from 6 to 4 without skills
[09:34] <namamai> At level 5, it knocks it from 4.5 to 3.
[09:34] <sardcaid> okay
[09:34] <sardcaid> personally I don't think managing a module that cycles about as fast as server tick lag sounds fun
[09:34] <namamai> The thing is, Hecate is the only def mode everyone seems to like, and it's the only one that's significantly different from the other three T3Ds.
[09:35] <namamai> Hecate: 33% resist, -33% sar cycle time Jackdaw, Confessor: 33% resist, -33% sig radius Svipul: 33% resist, -66% sigbloom on MWD
[09:36] <sardcaid> Well I think everyone likes defensive mode on all T3D, as it's really good
[09:36] <namamai> Too good:stuck_out_tongue:
[09:36] <sardcaid> hecate's the only one with a unique defensive mode bonus
[09:36] <syenna-celeste> I was contemplating this at work. While I'd?_like_?a 1.8 second cycle type deadspace MSB w/ highgrades and links... It'd be unmanageable with the 1hz tick.
[09:37] <sardcaid> yeah
[09:40] <syenna-celeste> hell
[09:40] <syenna-celeste> it'd be more like 1.2
[09:40] <syenna-celeste> already 1.5 heated with links:simple_smile:
[09:40] <sardcaid> with heat and links?
[09:40] <sardcaid> yeah
[09:41] <sardcaid> I mean even on hecate with bonus
[09:42] <sardcaid> even on MASB without bonus
[09:42] <sardcaid> it's so, so easy to over rep
[10:03] <ascentior> Unique is key here. I think there's too many suggestions of 'give them all MWD bonus like hecate' and 'give them active rep bonus like hecate'. Hecate might seem the most balanced of them all, but the big thing that everyone likes about these is that they are different!
[10:04] <ascentior> Hecate has MWD bonus, great. What OTHER bonus could we suggest for the other ships that also offers unique choices and won't be OP
[10:05] <sardcaid> For propulsion mode, it's very difficult to propose something different that doesn't make one mode much more powerful than the others
[10:06] <sardcaid> You can adjust the base agility, the base velocity, AB effectiveness, MWD effectiveness, propulsion mod penalties.
[10:07] <fintarue> I see no real issue with the hecate/jackdaw having low align times, or a problem with the insta warp mechanic. On the svipul and confessor, it's pretty easy to mess it up and force yourself to have a long align time
[10:08] <fintarue> In null sec, interceptors are still bubble immune, while the t3d are still forced to burn out of bubbles
[10:26] <fintarue> I am also for removing the signature bonuses on the ships, but I wouldn't reduce the resists in defense at that point. Part of the reason those 3 can do so well against cruisers is because of their signature bonus against cruiser sized guns. Without those signatures they'll get hit more often or harder, and taking the resist bonus down would be a double hit to the tank against bigger ships. I want big ships to be able to kill them, but I want the t3d to also still put up a fight.
[10:26] <fintarue> The Hecate for example puts up a good fights against many cruisers even though it gets hit for almost full damage against any cruiser size weapon system
[10:29] <fintarue> At this point it seems like the biggest question is how to make the t3d still strong against frigs and small frig gangs, but also reasonably killable by cruiser sized weapon systems.
[10:30] <namamai> Agreed.
[10:33] <fintarue> I also would like to point out that when the Svipul first released with it's dual resist bonus, it faired very poorly as it was not particularly good at any specific thing when people attempted to dual tank it. The Hecate has also been running into similar situations where mixed hull buffer and armor tend to underperform and die easier than the ones that focus entirely on either or. I want that to be considered before suggestions of mix tanking
[10:34] <namamai> ... people actually tried that? O_o
[10:34] <namamai> I mean, yes, most of Eve is bad at fitting, "My raven was equipped with the following," etc.
[10:34] <namamai> But that boggles the imagination.
[10:34] <fintarue> Well on some ships it does quite well, dual tanked breachers for example are exceedingly strong but it's because of the way fitting lines up on it
[10:35] <namamai> Yeah, dual tank Breachers only really work because of the absurd amount of capacitor on it.
[10:35] <fintarue> Not so much, because ASB take no cap
[10:35] <fintarue> So it's like running only an SAAR
[10:35] <namamai> (And because there's not much else to put on it once you've committed to a scram/web/MASB fit.)
[10:35] <fintarue> Bingo
[10:35] <fintarue> But ya, Svipul dual tank was exceedingly popular when it first released and I killed them left and right.
[10:36] <fintarue> And the majority of hecates I kill are hull buffer rigs and SAAR
[10:36] <fintarue> Which doesn't give a strong active tank even in defense
[10:36] <fintarue> so it bleeds too fast
[10:37] <namamai> Yeah, but most of Eve tends to gravitate towards good fits in the first few weeks of a ship being released. There were tons of idiots flying bad Svipuls initially, sure, but I'm guessing most of Eve is flying more solid fits these days -- i.e. MSE purger cancer fits, dual MASB fits, SAAR dual neut, etc.
[10:37] <namamai> (The first of which is the most irritating, imo.)
[10:37] <fintarue> Thankfully the purger fit died when they reduced shield recharge in the first past
[10:37] <fintarue> Those were beyond silly
[10:38] <fintarue> first pass*
[10:38] <namamai> Oh, they're still around today.
[10:39] <namamai> A purger fit can still get 300dps peak regen, enough for it to effectively ignore frigates. (More if it has OGB.)
[10:39] <fintarue> I haven't run across any in a long time, more common in null?
[10:39] <namamai> Yep.
[11:11] <suitonia> You can still see Purger Fits in Lowsec too
[11:12] <suitonia> 300 DPS passive tank in a small
[11:12] <suitonia> nothing can break it in realistic 1v1
[11:12] <suitonia> before it dies to it
[11:12] <suitonia> I mean even the 26k EHP dual MSE fit
[11:12] <suitonia> has 90 DPS passive tank
[11:12] <suitonia> which is really insane for free
[11:13] <suitonia> It can perma tank 5x light drones basically
[11:13] <suitonia> for free
[11:13] <suitonia> Which is why the meta has changed so heavily because of that svipul fit
[11:13] <suitonia> Cruisers can't rely on 5x light drones to save them from small ships
[11:19] <chessur> Small gang brawling would still be in...
[11:20] <chessur> You can self rep, or in confessor case RR
[11:34] <namamai> Maybe a second reduction in passive regen? Althoughccp_fozzie's idea of moving some of the damage to sharpshooter might fix that as well.
[11:34] <suitonia> yeah that could help too
[11:35] <suitonia> So to start another discussion
[11:35] <suitonia> If the sharpshooter contained some of the DPS of the hull
[11:35] <suitonia> How much of it should be on sharpshooter
[11:35] <suitonia> Would you say the ship role bonus would be too much? (The 50% damage from role bonus)
[11:37] <suitonia> Right now Svipul = 9 Effective Turrets total (4 x1.5 role bonus, x1.5 M.T.Destroyer V) Confessor = 9 Effective Turrets total (4x 1.5 role bonus, x1.5 A.T.Destroyer V) Hecate = 10 effective Turrets total (5x 1.5 role bonus, x1.33 G.T.Destroyer V) Jackdaw = 10 effective Launchers total (5x 1.5 role bonus, x1.33 C.T.Destroyer V)
[11:38] <suitonia> Without the role bonus it would Svipul 6 ETs, Confessor 6 ETs, Hecate 6.666 ETs, Jackdaw 6.666 ELs(edited)
[11:39] <suitonia> is that acceptable? For reference, thats still higher than every AF in the game, except the JD vs the Hawk with pure kinetic
[11:41] <suitonia> AFs for reference Retribution 5 Effective Turrets (4 x1.25) to the Confessors 6 (9 in sharpshooter) Wolf 6.25 Effective Turrets (4 x1.25, x1.25) to the Svipuls 6 (9 in sharpshooter) Enyo 6.0 Effective Turrets + 5m3 drone (4 x1.5) to the Hecates 6.6666 (10 in sharpshooter) Hawk 5.3333333 Universal Launchers, 8.0 Kinetic Locked Launchers (4 x1.333 / x1.5 KINETIC ONLY) to the Jackdaws 6.6666 (10 in Sharpshooter)(edited)
[11:42] <suitonia> Do you feel that it's fair that they drop down to AF levels of damage, or thereabouts, outside of the Sharpshooter.
[11:45] <suitonia> btw I fucked up on the Hecate and Jackdaw numbers sorry
[11:45] <gorski_car> Could do hp bonus instead of resistance
[11:45] <suitonia> I did it the wrong way round
[11:45] <suitonia> editing
[11:48] <suitonia> I know AFs aren't a destroyer hull, but I think they are directly the closest comparison to the 'role' that T3Ds current fulfill
[11:49] <suitonia> As a "mid-point" suggestion, what if Sharpshooter had a 20% DPS increase on it, and the role bonus was dropped down to 25% from 50%
[11:50] <suitonia> this would be 49% DPS overall instead of 50%
[11:50] <suitonia> because of how the numbers multiply together
[11:51] <suitonia> By DPS I mean 'damage'
[11:51] <suitonia> to clarify
[11:54] <selto_black> That sounds fair.
[11:54] <selto_black> That would really have no adverse affects that i can see for pve and would encourage mode switching.
[11:59] <namamai> suitonia: What's the ET count for the current crop of dictors?