[03:26] <sardcaid> Hey guys, john recommended doing a schedule to help folks plan for discussions, sounded like a good idea!
[03:27] <sardcaid> We've knocked through modes over the past 2.5 days, john is going to help out by placing suggestions for each mode into the summary doc he initially put together
[03:28] <sardcaid> I'd like to start discussing each ship in turn over the next few days leading up to the weekend
[03:28] <sardcaid> Over the weekend I figure we'll need a few days to review and rehash on ships or mode discussion
[03:29] <sardcaid> After that I would like to open the floor to out of the box ideas
[03:29] <sardcaid> So Weds will be Hecate and Jackdaw (they seem to have the least to be said)
[03:29] <sardcaid> Thursday will be Confessor
[03:29] <sardcaid> Late Thursday and Friday will be Svipul
[03:30] <sardcaid> Sat / Sun rehash / review of modes and ships
[03:30] <sardcaid> Sunday / Monday will start the out of box stuff
[03:31] <sardcaid> I still recommend you add your overall ideas to the 'at a glance' spreadsheet I put together, will help over the weekend for the review
[03:33] <sardcaid> Again, let's talk about the Hecate and Jackdaw starting tomorrow. What's good? What's bad? What should be changed, what should be kept? Think about fleet work and solo. Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.
[03:33] <sardcaid> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. sardcaid Hey guys, john recommended doing a schedule to help folks plan for discussions, sounded like a good idea! Oct 14th at 3:26 AM
[03:33] <sardcaid> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. sardcaid Again, let's talk about the Hecate and Jackdaw starting tomorrow. What's good? What's bad? What should be changed, what should be kept? Think about fleet work and solo. Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits. Oct 14th at 3:33 AM
[04:24] <sardcaid> I'm going to be fairly busy this morning, if anyone wants to start with either the Hecate or Jackdaw discussion, please do
[05:12] <selto_black> https://youtu.be/yxpW2ltDNowlet us categorize ourselves shall we. Then lets analyze t3ds with respect to bartyls theory. YouTube Extra Credits Bartle's Taxonomy - What Type of Player are You? - Extra Credits
[05:14] <selto_black> I myself am an explorer.
[05:15] <selto_black> @ccp_fozziewith respect to these 4 player subclasses who are t3ds geared twords?
[05:25] <scipioartelius> Schedule looks good. Will start putting my thoughts together in that order
[06:05] <suitonia> I don't think you can apply Bartle's Taxonomy directly to a ship type.
[06:08] <suitonia> a ship in eve is best thought of as a modifiable 'tool' that you use to overcome a challenge, whether that be running a mission/complex, fighting other players, or exploring.
[06:08] <suitonia> And other things ofc.
[06:44] <johndrees> So,@selto_blackI think the video you linked is interesting, but I think it would be difficult to apply the same logic directly to eve online. Obviously eve is very unique amongst games. I do recall a presentation at one of the fanfests where they had described players in different categories but they weren't precisely analogous to Bartle's Taxonomy. Primarily I don't think its relevant to the discussion about these ships though.
[06:48] <selto_black> I'd disagree on that last point as no ship is perfect for every type of player. I too remember that fanfest presentation now that you mention it, I should go research it.
[07:00] <suitonia> https://youtu.be/sOGnPAbHKDk?list=PLQvKSs1k6DLOiGGb44McruXcndTtzUUlu&t=1375 YouTube EVE Online EVE Fanfest 2015: EVE Online Keynote
[07:09] <suitonia> Sure. Different ships are going to be useful for different challenges in eve
[07:10] <suitonia> And they may suit the needs of different players due to what challenges they solve
[07:10] <suitonia> Like a Noctis is not going to be the ship of choice for exploring, or PvP.
[07:11] <suitonia> But I don't think you can directly associate a noctis with a player-type from Bartle's Taxonomy, I think it's hard to use this in this context
[07:12] <suitonia> I think a better context is "What challenges should a Tactical Destroyer be able to solve"
[07:12] <suitonia> what challenges should it excel at
[07:13] <suitonia> Obviously they should be optimal for, Shattered Wormhole PVE
[07:13] <suitonia> And they already are
[07:15] <selto_black> I don't only run shattered wormholes..... In fact the only reason I do run them is its the best isk:time:effort:engagement ratio I've found.
[07:16] <selto_black> I'm not sure whether you were trying to suggest that or not.
[07:18] <suitonia> I am not trying to directly say that at you, I was just suggesting one area where T3Ds should excel at
[07:19] <suitonia> they probably already are the best low isk investment option for high/low combat exploration, level 1/2 missions, and shattered wormhole PVE
[07:21] <forsot> i think a better example is t3 cruisers which can be considered to fall into all 4 groups do to its versatility or many other ships will fall into 2-3 groups vary often
[07:32] <selto_black> That is the problem with versatile ships.
[07:32] <selto_black> They will be used by more people because they fit into more than one use case.
[07:35] <johndrees> Maybe, but then again "groups" is a vague word in this context. You're unlikely to encounter a mining legion or a hauling proteus. My point being that "versatile" can mean a wide range of things but, as sutonia in a way already stated, the ships are generally locked into two main categories which are shooting things and not shooting things.
[07:37] <johndrees> Procurement of ideas from any sources you find interesting or helpful are excellent for discussion, but trying to squeeze the discussion into the framework of some context free theory about game design is not worthwhile and in fact will likely continue to sidetrack the conversation further than it already has.
[07:38] <johndrees> We are here because we love eve online, because we are thought to perhaps know enough to contribute to it in some small way. We aren't here to be game designers in general or for eve in particular.
[07:40] <selto_black> Hauling prot is a thing.
[07:41] <selto_black> cloaky gank prot filled with blue loot.
[07:43] <selto_black> But Ill give the point to you without qualifiers.
[07:43] <selto_black> Eh that is poorly worded.
[09:00] <sardcaid> It's been almost a full day, I think it's safe to chat about Confessors. If anyone wants to bring up Hecate / Jackdaw, please do.
[09:01] <sardcaid> Let's talk about the Confessor. What's good? What's bad? What should be changed, what should be kept? Think about fleet work and solo. Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.
[09:01] <sardcaid> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. sardcaid Let's talk about the Confessor. What's good? What's bad? What should be changed, what should be kept? Think about fleet work and solo. Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits. Oct 14th at 9:01 PM
[09:02] <sardcaid> I'd like to point out for these ship discussions, some of the previous dialogue using fits as examples of why attributes or bonuses are unbalanced, please bring those back up, or share them!
[09:26] <suitonia> What's good about the Confessor: Both Pulse/Beam fits feel balanced with the fitting resources available, I feel like the Confessor has a lot more tangible weaknesses (But also a lot of strengths too) which the Svipul does not have (3 Mids is quite limiting as you have to choose between web or injector on a lot of fits), the lower base tracking, and the fact that it needs cap to shoot provides a few more options for players to try and take advantage of it. The Confessor has a lot of projection, speed and damage, but it doesn't have all of that at once. What's bad about the Confessor: Speed mode providing huge base speed negates a lot of weaknesses with lower tracking beams/pulse weapons. The Defense mode signature bonus is cool, but in Defence mode it has a smaller signature than a Punisher which doesn't feel quite right...
[09:27] <suitonia> I think the Confessor has too much passive damage mitigation in speed and defence modes, due to sig/base speed
[09:28] <suitonia> But I like that the Sharpshooter mode is really valuable on it
[09:28] <suitonia> unlike the Svipul
[09:28] <suitonia> so mode swapping on confessor is more rewarding and necessary
[09:30] <suitonia> TL;DR I think the Confessor currently sits above the Hecate/Jackdaw in balance, but it's not as broken as the Svipul due to more tangible weaknesses and mode swapping is required to get more out of the ship, placing it at a higher skill cap than the Svipul has
[09:32] <suitonia> beam sniper fits are more vulnerable than artillery svipul fits due to the Arty Svipul getting that defensive web for free and having more raw buffer
[09:40] <johndrees> Yeah, pretty much nailed that on the head. I'll add that the defensive mode while it can occasionally be useful is much less useful than the other two modes when in a beam configuration.
[09:42] <johndrees> And since you have to swap into sharp shooter mode to hit at really long range you do actually become vulnerable to other long range dps since you are slower and have no sig bonus. This has become much more significant since the recent buffs to combat battlecruisers. Which is great, and I think places the beam fits further in balance than they were previously.
[09:44] <johndrees> I don't know if those battlecruiser changes have fully "sunk in" to the whole consciousness of the game. They make a big difference and actually allow combat BC to very effectively counter t3d while in the same price range.
[09:55] <sardcaid> I really don't see how they're a counter to T3D, but on the same token I find more brawling T3D than sniping T3D as serious threats to how I typically play
[10:00] <suitonia> I think Confessor needs a base sig nerf tho
[10:00] <suitonia> Along with Svipul
[10:01] <suitonia> It's pretty ridiculous that a Confessor in some cases takes less cruiser missile DPS than some frigates
[10:04] <sardcaid> So bring their sig inline with destroyer level sig?
[10:05] <sardcaid> It's very much what makes Confessor / Svipul so difficult to deal with
[10:05] <sardcaid> The resistances are really good, but normally EHP isn't crazy wild
[10:06] <sardcaid> it's the fact that fast speed coupled with tiny sig, those few shots you're able to get in are absorbed effectively
[10:08] <sardcaid> I'm cautious about undervaluing adjustments to sig on those two ships though - if we mess with sig, we should make certain we can draw parallels elsewhere, or have something to back up it won't overnerf the ship
[10:08] <sardcaid> which is partly why I brought up the MWD sig penalty reduction over the past few days
[10:09] <fintarue> The confessor EHP is far tamer than Svipul. I second/third/fourth wherever we're at, for removing the sig bonus on the confessor. Mid size weapons apply too poorly. The resists atm are practically a non factor just because it can mitigate a huge porition of mid sized weapon damage from it's sig radius alone.
[10:10] <fintarue> Taking off the scan res bonus, and reducing the lock range bonus of Sharpshooter. I wouldn't change the base lock range, just the Sharp bonus to force a decision of whether a Sebo is needed or not, and to increase the effectiveness of damps against them.
[10:12] <fintarue> I'm borderline about the ranges it can potentially apply range at. 300dps out to 70km I want to say is too much, but this is a situation that isn't as key in bigger fleet fights since those fits can be volleyed easily off the field, and is more an issue of small gang
[10:17] <sardcaid> Current opt bonus is 66%, yes?
[10:18] <sardcaid> I'd bring that down to 50% to match other destroyer snipers and make them less redundant
[10:18] <fintarue> I believe so. My biggest concern is that although the beam fits hit hard at far ranges, I'd hate to see the pulses get hit. As it's something a pilot really already considered when flying a brawling fit and you need to deal with scram/skirmish kiters
[10:19] <sardcaid> at 50% it'd be the same as coercer pulse range
[10:19] <sardcaid> pretty good
[10:20] <sardcaid> I'm not sure if much talk was made about it, but what would be used to replace the sig boni on the confessor?
[10:20] <sardcaid> I figure rep amount is genericly good given the ship's common dependence on small local reps
[10:21] <chessur> What about cap use on guns?
[10:21] <fintarue> It already has that
[10:21] <sardcaid> base hull still has that
[10:21] <fintarue> On the base hull ya
[10:22] <chessur> No as increased bonus
[10:22] <sardcaid> increased where?
[10:22] <sardcaid> just increase the hull bonus, or put it in a mode?
[10:22] <chessur> As in, inside defence mode
[10:22] <chessur> Something more unique
[10:22] <sardcaid> I understand why you recommend that but it feels odd anyway
[10:22] <chessur> Imo
[10:22] <suitonia> http://puu.sh/kKu8c/b87008647c.png(11KB)
[10:23] <chessur> To make guns free basically
[10:23] <suitonia> All T3 tactical destroyers have smaller sigs than interdictor counterparts
[10:23] <chessur> More room to rep
[10:23] <suitonia> and many have lower sig than T1 counter-parts
[10:23] <fintarue> Honestly, I don't feel the cap is a big deal on the confessor.
[10:24] <sardcaid> with the turret reduction and retained cap bonus, that doesn't surprise me
[10:24] <fintarue> It's never something I've been super concerned about, and with 2 utility highs for potential nos'
[10:24] <suitonia> Typically. T1 Ships have smaller sigs than T2 ships, and T3 cruisers have larger sigs than everything else, aside from a select few configs like the sig reduction one on loki
[10:24] <fintarue> Armor rep bonus would be fun, but I can honestly say that it would probably go too far
[10:25] <sardcaid> well there's not a lot of history of T3 ships to base off of
[10:25] <sardcaid> T3s just took a sig nerf as well
[10:25] <sardcaid> I'm a fan of T3D having T2+ sig, plus being slightly better
[10:26] <sardcaid> that's where the jackdaw and hecate lie
[10:26] <sardcaid> puts them between T2 and T1
[10:27] <fintarue> The svipul's in silly low naturally. I'd definitely take off the sig bonus for the jackdaw and confessor
[10:27] <chessur> It can be when brawling
[10:27] <chessur> Under neut pressure
[10:27] <sardcaid> that's healthy for a laser boat though
[10:27] <fintarue> Agreed, and with a cap booster it still holds up under a medium neut extremely well
[10:28] <sardcaid> I like the idea of a cap bonus on defense
[10:28] <chessur> More cap, meaning web is possible in some situations
[10:28] <sardcaid> gives me the khanid feel
[10:28] <fintarue> suddenly changed your mind
[10:29] <chessur> And more pve application
[10:29] <chessur> Along with more resistant to med neuts
[10:29] <sardcaid> Not for free or ~ free cap use on guns
[10:29] <sardcaid> but maybe a cap recharge or amount bonus?
[10:29] <fintarue> Ok, how about this then, instead of a gun bonus since it has it
[10:29] <chessur> Yah, something like that
[10:29] <fintarue> How about in defense mode a cap reduction on armor reps
[10:29] <chessur> That coyld work as well
[10:29] <fintarue> Since often the pve fits are armor rep fit
[10:29] <sardcaid> yeah I was just thinking about that too
[10:30] <chessur> Or just a bonus to cap regen in defense mode
[10:30] <fintarue> Has a similar effect without being redundant
[10:30] <chessur> That is very flexible
[10:30] <sardcaid> either suggestion would pretty much make single rep svipul free to use without a cap booster
[10:30] <fintarue> confessor?
[10:30] <sardcaid> sorry
[10:30] <chessur> Works with rr, and with self rep
[10:30] <sardcaid> confessor
[10:30] <sardcaid> yeah
[10:31] <sardcaid> haha, yeah I like that
[10:31] <suitonia> So putting T3Ds at least between T1 Destroyers and T2 would be a start
[10:31] <sardcaid> full RR confessor with a cap battery
[10:31] <fintarue> That would be a really neat change to rr confessors. They're already breakable but it could help out with damage application options
[10:31] <suitonia> Move Confessor from 60m to 70m, move svipul from 50m to 66m
[10:31] <suitonia> roughly
[10:31] <sardcaid> 66.6
[10:31] <fintarue> lol
[10:31] <sardcaid> :wink:
[10:31] <chessur> 77.7 CONFESSOR
[10:31] <chessur> 66.6 svipul
[10:32] <suitonia> Well heretic is 75
[10:32] <chessur> DONE
[10:32] <suitonia> Dragoon is 66
[10:32] <suitonia> should be between there
[10:32] <sardcaid> fuck it let's decimal error
[10:32] <sardcaid> 666 sig on svipul
[10:32] <sardcaid> DONE
[10:32] <suitonia> 70 sounds good because its the same as hecate/jackdaw
[10:32] <fintarue> 70 is a nice non OCD triggering number
[10:32] <suitonia> and seems reasonable
[10:32] <sardcaid> yup yup
[10:33] <fintarue> Jackdaws is often a bit larger because of shield extenders or rigs
[10:33] <fintarue> Again, opting to remove the sig bonus though
[10:33] <sardcaid> chess how do you feel about confessor projection dropping from 66% boni in sharp to 50%
[10:33] <sardcaid> same as coerc / slicer
[10:33] <chessur> I am all in favor of t3d losing projection
[10:34] <sardcaid> cool
[10:34] <chessur> Its opressive
[10:34] <sardcaid> agree
[10:34] <fintarue> Th svipul's is reasonable
[10:34] <chessur> And so manybother ships do it already
[10:34] <chessur> Many other*
[10:34] <fintarue> 50km is stretching it really hard, and it's minimal at that point
[10:34] <johndrees> Either speed or range has to go lol. I'd rather see range than speed be nerfed.
[10:35] <chessur> ^ agreed
[10:35] <suitonia> The svipuls is on the base hull, all the modes have multiples of 3 bonuses
[10:35] <suitonia> for "flavor"
[10:35] <suitonia> whether or not that is balanced or not though
[10:35] <fintarue> Svipul's should be on Sharp
[10:35] <sardcaid> svipul also has non range bonus for SR guns however
[10:35] <chessur> Falloff bonus imo
[10:35] <chessur> 50%
[10:36] <sardcaid> let's finish up conf discussion before svipul talk
[10:36] <chessur> Gives acs with barrage 1.3+23
[10:36] <chessur> With out mods
[10:36] <chessur> Which is a nice place to be
[10:36] <fintarue> lololol
[10:36] <chessur> Tone damage down a bit
[10:36] <chessur> And that would be fun
[10:36] <chessur> Hecate brawling, confessor kiting
[10:37] <chessur> And svipul inbetween- where minny ships should be
[10:37] <chessur> No tracking bonus fyi
[10:37] <chessur> But svipul is Saturday right?
[10:38] <johndrees> Yes I like that.
[10:38] <chessur> Arty still works, but worse.
[10:39] <chessur> And svipul has unique niche with long ranfe autos
[10:39] <chessur> Less dps than confessor at 20k obviously, pess than hecate brawling
[10:39] <chessur> But very nice dps 13-20k
[10:39] <chessur> Which is fun
[10:39] <sardcaid> Svipul is tonight or tomorrow
[10:39] <fintarue> Meh, I'd rather not toss a ship into a problem that other minnie ships already have
[10:39] <chessur> I have a few unique flavors of speed mode to throw on svipul
[10:39] <johndrees> 3+km/sec with 220dps to 70ish km is what makes the confessor such a bitch to kill when combined with its low sig. Almost anything fast enough to catch up isn't tanky enough to deal with the incoming dps from more than a couple of them.
[10:39] <sardcaid> depending on people bringing up more confessor stuff
[10:40] <chessur> To amp up that type of gameplay
[10:40] <fintarue> Pretty much john
[10:40] <johndrees> You've probably all enjoyed this perk of the ship in your own gameplay.
[10:41] <johndrees> If you increase the sig at the very least, long range sniping ships can begin to counter them.
[10:41] <sardcaid> mostly tanking it in a BC / BS silently and cursing, john
[10:41] <johndrees> Lol
[10:42] <johndrees> Well I have abused the absolute shit out of that.
[10:43] <sardcaid> A reminder for everyone, I've been pinning prompts and announcements, you can click on the i or member pop buttons top right to see pinned messages
[10:43] <chessur> Where is ccp in all of this?
[10:43] <chessur> :(
[10:43] <sardcaid> ghost town
[10:43] <chessur> Would be nice to hear their input
[10:43] <sardcaid> was hoping@gorski_carcould ask about things
[10:44] <sardcaid> but frankly I think we're fine as is
[10:44] <sardcaid> only thing I could really ask of them is if they had a topic or idea they wanted input on
[10:44] <sardcaid> other than that the spitballing we're tossing out are good for design
[10:45] <chessur> So are we still on confessor?
[10:46] <sardcaid> oh you
[10:46] <chessur> Dexrease optimal, give cap bonus in defense, change sig, give -25%dps out of sharpshooter
[10:46] <chessur> And change flat velocity bonus to mwd sig?
[10:46] <chessur> Did i miss anything?
[10:46] <sardcaid> I'd prefer to wait a few hours for people to toss their ideas in instead of marching on, but I also don't want to stifle discussion if we've good participation
[10:47] <chessur> Sry not trying to push anything
[10:47] <chessur> My bad
[10:47] <sardcaid> lemme formally start and pin svipul, and people can catch up and pitch in on previous ships if they feel for it
[10:47] <sardcaid> Let's talk about the Svipul. What's good? What's bad? What should be changed, what should be kept? Think about fleet work and solo. Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits.
[10:48] <sardcaid> As with the rest of the day, if you would like to go back and address previous points on the Confessor, Hecate or Jackdaw, please do so.
[10:48] <johndrees> I think the confessor should probably hit out to around 50 with beams in ss mode and have its sig increased to standard destroyers.
[10:48] <sardcaid> Pinned a message.See all pinned items in this channel. sardcaid Let's talk about the Svipul. What's good? What's bad? What should be changed, what should be kept? Think about fleet work and solo. Think about combat exploration as well as PvP roles, balancing LR vs SR fits. Oct 14th at 10:47 PM
[10:48] <sardcaid> okay go ham
[10:49] <suitonia> http://puu.sh/kKvoj/c6e954b3a7.png(294KB) Here are some graphs about Heavy Assault Missiles applying to T3Ds (With 1x 57.5% web). Drone damage is disabled. Hecate (All modes) Takes 330 DPS out of 352 DPS (seems fair) Confessor (Sharpshooter) Takes 280 DPS out of 352 DPS (50 DPS reduction even in sharpshooter from Hecate, this is a 15% damage reduction just from the base sig/speed stats ) Confessor (Defensive) takes 190 DPS out of 352 DPS (140 DPS reduction from the Hecate in all modes, this is a 42% damage reduction!!!!) Confessor (Speed) takes 220 DPS out of 352 DPS (110 DPS reduction from the Hecate in all modes, this is a 33% damage reduction)
[10:50] <suitonia> Graphs: Top Left (Hecate) Top Right (Confessor Sharpshooter), Bottom Left (Confessor Defence), Bottom right (Confessor Speed)
[10:52] <sardcaid> I'd like to point out I said "okay go ham" and suitonia pastes the knowledge bomb he's been formatting for the past 15 minutes just afterwards
[10:52] <fintarue> lolol
[10:52] <sardcaid> about ham
[10:52] <sardcaid> we should be friends
[10:52] <sardcaid> !
[10:53] <suitonia> haha
[10:53] <suitonia> but yeah, without dragging the confessor discussion on
[10:53] <suitonia> I think this shows
[10:53] <suitonia> why the base sig/speed stats on confessor/svipul get ridicilious
[10:53] <suitonia> when it comes to cruiser application
[10:55] <suitonia> Anyway Svipul
[10:59] <suitonia> The Good: It feels good when they blow up, like Falcons The Bad: Too much EHP/DPS stats on brawling fits with no weaknesses in regards to cap/speed etc. Also has incredible shield regen even when not fit for it (90 DPS passive tank for free, this has changed the cruiser meta completely to needing to be able to deal with the Svipul particulary, since a Svipul can permatank a flight of light drones just for free on it's base stats, huge base sig/speed stats mean you need dual webs to track it often, missile BCs can even die to it in a 1v1 because of this lol). Svipul has a very low skill cap, 90% of the time you will never swap modes in a Svipul, defensive mode and ram.
[10:59] <suitonia> unlike kiting confessors/hecate which needs to switch to sharpshooter to project, Svipul gets it on the hull, so there is little need to swap out of speed mode when kiting
[11:00] <fintarue> lol I was looking through my footage for DD stuff and I just watched 2 svipul fights I had that were silly like that. 1v4 against t1 frigs, and 1v3 against comets and a tristan, tough, but still easily winnable.
[11:01] <fintarue> And it was, speed mode approach, defense mode. Didn't even have a web. Not dual mse tank
[11:01] <suitonia> The lack of dependency on cap while having the passive mitigation and regen that it has makes it have no weaknesses, while the hecate and confessor at least fear neuts
[11:02] <suitonia> because of that, the dual neut svipul is particulary strong (for the same reason the cane was back in the day)
[11:02] <suitonia> because you just dump your cap and don't care
[11:02] <sardcaid> removing the velocity bonus will do a great deal to realize a fear of neuts with the svip
[11:03] <suitonia> yeah removing the base speed, and turning into prop mode on bonus/mass reduction will help there
[11:03] <suitonia> because you can at least neut off an ab if it has one
[11:03] <sardcaid> yup
[11:03] <suitonia> and if its mwd/scram then it won't mitigate as much
[11:03] <sardcaid> will make it more worthwhile to use tanking mode for when you get caught
[11:03] <suitonia> I think a lot of underlining issues specifically with the svipul are to do with acs/arty balance unfortunately
[11:03] <suitonia> like ac fits getting dual neuts for free
[11:04] <sardcaid> yeah
[11:04] <sardcaid> we were talking about an artillery fitting bonus on the base hull instead of opt, removing tracking on sharpshooter and adding the range bonus to sharp shooter
[11:04] <sardcaid> the other day
[11:04] <johndrees> The resistance profile of the svipul is sooooo nice in shields, you don't have to bother plugging any holes and so it can focus on pure buffer. Maybe that should be shifted?
[11:05] <suitonia> It has the same resistances as all minmatar t2 ships
[11:05] <sardcaid> doesn't address the greater issue about artillery being a chore for all minnie ships, but I think just about all other minnie ships bear the burden well
[11:05] <suitonia> I don't think that should change
[11:05] <fintarue> I have little issue with the resists
[11:05] <suitonia> There are some ships which have balanced arty and AC fits
[11:05] <suitonia> like the Firetail for example
[11:05] <fintarue> Extremely.
[11:05] <sardcaid> that's mostly due to module slot restrictions I feel
[11:05] <fintarue> Other's can't even do arty without sacrificing everything to them
[11:06] <fintarue> Arty has the fitting for it
[11:06] <fintarue> Slasher/Rifter can't do it without 2-3 fitting mods
[11:06] <suitonia> well the firetail only has to fit 2 guns
[11:06] <suitonia> which is why
[11:06] <suitonia> you can give it the grid to fit those 2 guns
[11:06] <suitonia> without giving ACs everything
[11:06] <sardcaid> svipul only has to fit 4 of 6 highslots, firetail has the same huge grid to work with really
[11:07] <suitonia> Sure, but it can't spend that grid as freely as the svipul
[11:07] <sardcaid> agree
[11:11] <sardcaid> Regarding that projection bonus on the svipul, chessur tossed out 50% falloff, is that where we'd want to land?
[11:11] <fintarue> Why not a mixed bonus similar to what the BCs got?
[11:12] <sardcaid> yeaaah I was was thinking about a 33% falloff and opt
[11:13] <sardcaid> 20+ in barrage seems oppressive to me from a ship that dishes out a heap of dps in sharpshooter, though on flip side this will be from a ship with nearly 50% more sig and a reason to be in sharpshooter, not defense
[11:13] <sardcaid> that's also barrage, not EMP, though I don't think that number chess threw out involved any mods / rigs
[11:14] <sardcaid> oh no shit the sabre has a 10% per level too, thought it was 7.5
[11:14] <sardcaid> I think the sabre feels quite good, and the two ships have about the same damage output in sharp with the 1.2 bonus we're tossing around
[11:15] <sardcaid> I'm okay with 10% per level then, the 50%
[11:31] <suitonia> 33% to falloff+optimal might be a little better with the flavors taken into account
[11:33] <johndrees> What's the goal range? I think 20-24 with barrage seems ok.
[11:38] <chessur> 20k barrage before fitting mods imo
[11:38] <chessur> No optimal or tracking bonus
[11:38] <chessur> With no tracking, svipul becomes far less opressive with arty fits
[11:39] <chessur> I like tge idea of the svipul having thw ability to be an arty sniper, or an ac kiter
[11:39] <fintarue> It's not the tracking that makes them oppressive, since thy hardly use sharp mode as is
[11:39] <fintarue> The speed of prop mode makes up for no tracking
[11:39] <chessur> Arty svipul lives in sharp shooter mode currently
[11:40] <chessur> Speed only to outrun target
[11:40] <fintarue> I feel like you've missed a good portion of what Suitonia has been talking about with the arty svipul. They don't really need sharp mode to track because of how fast they can go in Prop mode. They can easily counter transversal and keep at range in speed mode
[11:40] <fintarue> And they don't need sharpshooter for range
[11:41] <suitonia> What chessur?
[11:41] <suitonia> You are in speed mode the whole fight
[11:41] <suitonia> even against a mwd/scram/web slasher that gets on top of you and establishes orbit 500
[11:41] <suitonia> speed mode gives more tracking than sharpshooter does
[11:41] <suitonia> and thats the lowest sig/fastest frig in the game
[11:42] <suitonia> you move at 479m/s or w/e it is in speed mode
[11:42] <suitonia> which is faster than most frigates in the game
[11:42] <suitonia> so with your defensive web countering their web
[11:42] <suitonia> you move faster
[11:42] <suitonia> 0 traversal
[11:42] <suitonia> perfect hits
[11:43] <suitonia> You don't need the tracking on sharpshooter at all
[11:44] <suitonia> the only svipuls that live in sharpshooter are the instalocking variety
[11:44] <suitonia> and even then
[11:44] <suitonia> they swap when they've got a lock
[11:49] <johndrees> When I have flown the svipul in an arty configuration I have left it in speed mode most of the time. It's engagement range doesn't change by switching modes and unless targets close range it doesn't have any trouble tracking targets.(edited)